好的 这里我们讨论 Okay, so we are discussing here
一系列大家已经知道的主题 a cluster of themes that you may know
讨论一系列主题 Discussing the thematic cluster of
关于上帝子民 上帝的民族 chosen people, people of God
还有其他人的地位 where exactly everybody else
不仅仅是在现在 both in the here and now
而且还有在最终的未来 where is everybody else in the ultimate future
也就是末日之后 Right, at the end of days
这就是我们这周 These are the cluster of themes
要讨论的一系列主题 that we are looking at this week
因此我们已经讨论过了犹太教的方面 So we spoke about Jewish side of things
犹太教的圣经遗产 the Hebrew Bible legacy
末日的图景 诸如此类 the vision of the end of days, and so on
我们已经讨论了这些主题 We discussed those themes
接着是希伯来圣经 然后是犹太教 and then Hebrew Bible, and then Judaism
今天我们要学习的内容是 And now today, we'll look at
希伯来圣经和基督教 Hebrew Bible and Christianity
这些都是很大的主题 Okay, here are enormous topics
而且对文字的解读 and the texts are much contested
也非常有争议 for their interpretation
所以一般说来 我就是想要 So usual, I'm just gonna try
为大家展现主要的脉络 to get the big picture here
希望其中有些同学 and I hope that some of you
能够真正感兴趣 will be interested actually
仔细地去读读这些段落 look at the passages carefully or closely
我们现在从耶稣开始 So let's begin with Jesus
在四部福音书中 耶稣 In all four Gospels Jesus acts
都是主要与犹太人接触 interacts primarily with Jews
这是非常值得注意的 And this is worth stating, right
耶稣不是在挪威 Jesus is not in Norway, right
他在犹大 Jesus is in Judea
因此他所交流的人们 Therefore the people with whom he interacts
大部分是 虽然不全是犹太族人 are, not exclusively, but mostly Judeans
犹太族人也是大部分 And Judeans are mostly
不是说所有 大部分是犹太人 not exclusively, but mostly Jews
都是属于这个民族的 i.e., they belong to the ethnos
犹太这个民族 the ethnicity of Judeans, of Jews
这个种族 the descent group
这一点我们周三的课程上已经讲解了 which we spoke about on Wednesday
他们遵守Torah的律法 They observe the laws in the Torah
或者应当遵守律法 or they are supposed to
他们崇拜上帝 And they worship the God
上帝就是神殿在耶路撒冷的那位 whose temple is in Jerusalem
他们是耶稣的子民 These are Jesus's people
这些人里面 They are the same people
既包括他的反对者 who are his opponents
同时也包括 They are the same people
他的崇拜者和追随者 who are his admirers an followers
这群人就构成了 The same people who provide
他所吸引的群体 the human resources for
人群资源 the crowds that he attracts
也包括那些攻击他的人 as well as those people who are attacking him
这些人都是犹太民族 All of them are equally Judeans
犹太人 Jews, Jews
这一点总是被忽略 This point is often forgotten as if
好像说只有他的反对者是犹太人 somehow only is opponents are Jews
而他的追随者就不是了 And those who follow him aren't
但是叙事中并没有这么说 But the narrative makes no such thing
他所处的环境就是这样的 Right, it's understood this is his setting
或者换种说法 And, or differently
这是他的子民 These are his people
除却少数的是希腊人 Except for occasional Greek
用福音书中的话是这么说 To use the word used in the Gospels
希腊人是指的异教徒 Greek means a pagan
另一种说法也是这样称呼 In other words would be
但是这种叫法就是后来的事了 a pagan would be a later term
或者是多神论者 or polytheist
偶尔地会有希腊人加入其中 That's occasionally Greeks pop in
当然还有罗马人 罗马士兵 and of course, Romans, Roman soldiers
罗马行政人员 等等 Roman administrators, right, and so on
接下来的一个重点会让大家想到 The next big point remind you of
一位恩斯林先生的作品 a Mr. Enslin's reading from
我们几周前讲过 several weeks back
四部福音书中从来没有一部声称 At no point, any of the Gospels claim
耶稣当时想要成立一个新的宗教 that Jesus is intending to found a new religion
耶稣希望成立一个新的民族 that Jesus is intending to found a new people
耶稣想要排挤犹太教 Jesus is intending to set aside Judaism
创立一些其他的东西 and bring about something else
也就是说 Okay? In other words
我没有否认福音书中的话 I'm not denying something the Gospel say
我不过是在 I'm simply observing
阐述福音书中没有说的话 something the Gospels don't say
好的 我们都知道 Okay, we all understand
故事将会怎么发展 where we are going with the story
将会发生什么 What will happen
但是福音书并不是 Right, but that's not the way
以这种方式来呈现耶稣的 the Gospels themselves present Jesus
在我给大家的批评里面 In the small critique I gave you some
有两个最尖锐的评价 two of the most pointed passages
一直以来我们都是这么理解的 They are often have been understood this way
但是可以结合背景读读这些文字 But read the passages and contexts
我不认为它们是说 I don't think they mean
耶稣在挤兑犹太人和犹太教 Jesus is pushing aside Jews and Judaism
耶稣在攻击犹太教的权威 Jesus is attacking Jewish leadership authority
犹太教的领导群 Jewish leadership groups
犹太当局 authority groups
当然他也这样做了 Which of course he does
耶稣是一名先知 He's a prophetic figure
是社会的批评人士 who's a critique of society
是社会制度的批评人士 and a critique of the institutions of society
因此基督教 文人 法利塞人 神殿 The Christhood, scribes, Pharisees, the temple
祭拜的神殿 the temple of worship
这就是先知的工作 That's what a prophet does
他们批评 a prophet criticizes
社会中的官方人物 the authority figures of society
耶稣也做这些事情 That's what Jesus does as well
他并没有在成立 He is no more founding
一个新的宗教 a new religion thereby
意图甚至不如耶利米明显 than was Jeremiah
这就是我要说的 Okay, that's all I'm gonna say
关于耶稣的内容 about Jesus right now
如果你感兴趣 If you are interested
那就来选我的新课 Come and take my course
如果我真的能克服障碍开课 should I ever get around offering it
名字就叫做圣经《新约》入门 on the introduction to New Testament
以及早期的基督教 and the earliest Christianity
顺便插播一个广告 我出了本新书 By the way, a plug from my new book, right
叫《犹太注释新约》 The Jewish Annotated New Testament
刚刚问世 just came out
登上了纽约时报 get onto the New York Times
还特别提到了我的名字 I was mentioned, my name
好的 纽约时报 Right, the New York Times
书的名字就叫《犹太注释新约》 Anyway, so Jewish Annotated New Testament
犹太人掌管了希伯来圣经 Jews are taking over the Hebrew Bible
以及新约 and the New Testament, okay
大家说不定会喜欢呢 So you may wanna look at it
好了 耶稣就说到这里 Okay, enough about Jesus
现在我们来说保罗 Now about Paul
我们可以说上好几个星期 Again, we can spend weeks
讲这些内容了 talking about these things
但是我们不会这样做 but again, we are not going to
说到保罗 So talking about Paul
在我看来 保罗是这里的重要人物 Paul is, I would say, is the key figure here
重要的过渡性人物 is the key transitional figure
因为是保罗提出 cos Paul is the one who argues
上帝的新民族 that the new people of God
不再是一个种族 is no longer the descent group
保罗的观点是 Right, Paul is arguing that
以色列人是上帝的子民 Israel is the people of God
但是我接下来要说的每一句话 but every word I'm about to say
都是有争议的 is argued about, right
不是说已经盖棺定论的说法 It's not kind of formulated this
基本上每一句话 There's a hundred footnotes
后面都跟着一百条注释 on the following sentence
是保罗提出这样的观点 That Paul is the one who argues that
上帝的子民 the people of God
或者我应该说 上帝的新子民 or perhaps the new people of God
或者应该说是以色列 or perhaps I should say, Israel
或者应该说 上帝的以色列 or perhaps I should say, Israel of God
这群子民并不等同于 Alright, that group is not identical with
从前的以色列 犹太民族 the old descent group of
犹太人这些种族 Israel, Judeans, Jews
因为真正的以色列 Cos the real Israel
或者用一个仅用过一次的说法 or to use the phrase that uses only once
上帝的以色列包括 the Israel of God consists of those
那些笃信基督的人们 who believe in Christ
而这才是上帝的新子民 and that is the new people of God
而回头来看 这些子民当然 And in turn, that people of course
不是一个民族 不是一个种族 is not an ethnos, is not a descent group
不是一个民族 而是其他的 is not ethnicity, is something else
这是保罗 That's Paul
在加拉太书中有一句非常有名的话 There's a famous line in Galatians
我为大家引用了出来 which I quote for you here
希望大家可以读一下 3:28-29 which I would like you to look at, 3:28-29
从此不再分犹太人和希腊人 There is no longer Jew or Greek
自由人和奴隶 there is no longer slave or free
男人和女人 there is no longer male and female
因为你们都在耶稣基督里合而为一了 for all of you are one in Christ Jesus
这段话写的非常优美 It's a beautiful line, very striking
非常动人 Very striking a line
要是我问你具体是什么意思 Exactly what does it mean, I ask you
我也不太确定 I'm not completely sure
但是听起来还不错 but I know it sounds good
但是我也不是完全确定 but I'm not completely sure
归根结底 After all, is it true that
不再有男人和女人 是真的吗 there is no longer male and female
我要看一看基督教徒是不是还有两种性别 lest I check Christians come in two varieties
男人和女人 male and female
我去看一看 男人和女人 Lest I check, and male are female
仍旧是男人和女人 are still males and females
做着男人和女人应该做的事 doing what male an females do
所以保罗说 再也没有 So what does Paul mean when he says
男人和女人 是什么意思 there is no longer male and female?
生理上的现实没有被改变 The biological reality continues
所以我们需要解读 So we need to interpret it
那么这是什么意思呢 Therefore what does it mean, then
当保罗说 when he says there are
不再分犹太人和希腊人 no longer Jew or Greek?
这似乎没那么简单了 Well, not so simple any more, right
实际上非常非常复杂 This is actually very very complicated
但是我认为这里所说的意思是 But I think what it's getting at is
这些区别的重点是 the point of these distinctions
这些区别可能在社会上仍旧存在 These distinctions may persist socially
还会有犹太人和希腊人 i.e., there are Jews, and there are Greeks
还会有男人和女人 There are males and there are females
还会有自由人和奴隶 Just as there are free and slaves
社会上的区别仍旧存在 仍旧作用 The social distinction still obtains, they still work
仍旧是真实的 They are still real
但是在基督的眼中 But, in the eyes of Christ
这些区别不再是个问题 these distinctions no longer matter
这至少是我对此的理解 That's at least how I, Shaye Cohen, understand
我理解的保罗所表达的意思 what Paul is getting at in this line
大家可以表示异议 Feel free to disagree, right
他并不是在说 So he is not arguing
就再也没有犹太人了 there aren't any Jews anymore
犹太人仍然存在 Jews still exist
但是这些犹太人和非犹太人间的不同 But, that distinction between Jews and gentiles
在上帝的眼中不再重要 but no longer really matters in God's eyes
因为他在替换下一个种族 Because he's replacing the descent group
取而代之的则是我们所谓的 with what we ultimately will call
宗教 a religion
这就是保罗 That's Paul, alright
这是一件大事 And that's big
非常重大 That's really big
好的 不是耶稣 是保罗 Okay, it's not Jesus, that's Paul
好的 现在我停下来等大家问问题 Okay, I'm now gonna stop for questions
因为你们一定有问题 Cos you wanna ask me one
然后我们就会有很多麻烦 And now we are gonna be in trouble, right
我强调一遍 这些 I'll say it again, these are
都是非常有争议的问题 immensely contested questions about
关于如何理解保罗真正的意思 how to interpret what Paul actually means
保罗是一位非常有影响的作家 Paul is a tremendously effective writer
非常有影响的传教士 a tremendously effective preacher
他并不是一位有影响的神学家 He's not an effective theologian
神学家都有一个体系 Right, a theologian has a system
非常清楚地编排好 were clearly worked out
一切都井然有序 严丝合缝 everything fits, all the pieces fit together
都是安置好的 It's all laid out from
从第一部分 到第二部分到第三部分 Part 1 to Part 2 to Part 3
你可以非常有逻辑地明白整个体系 as you proceed logically through the system
保罗不是这样的 That's not Paul
现代的解读者 That's what modern interpreters
希望保罗如此 want Paul to be
然而他并非如此 but alas, he is not
相反 他是一位演说家 一位老师 Instead, he's a speaker and teacher
感情丰富 充满热情 a man full of emotion and passion
就是这样 大家有问题吗 Anyway, okay, any questions?
很好 Good, so
说真的 Seriously
你们想让我怎么办呢 Yes, what can I do?
有人想问我问题吗 Anybody wants to ask me a question?
好吧 你可以问 科恩老师 Alright, so if Professor Cohen
你什么意思 What are you saying?
你说是保罗才是 Are you saying that Paul is
基督教的真正创立者 而非耶稣 the real founder of Christianity, not Jesus?
你是这个意思吗 科恩老师 Is that what you just say, Professor Cohen?
是吧 Yes
其实这样的看法 Alright, these views have been
已经存在已久 out there a long time
人们当然对这样的观点也有所争议 People of course argue about this very point
在我看来 是的 I would say, yes
保罗才是这里的主角 It's Paul who's the main man here
这是我 科恩 Yes, this is how I, Shaye Cohen
所理解的 understand things
但是实际上 有些人是不同意的 But in facts, people out there disagree
他们有不同的意见 have different suggestions
不同的看法 different formulations
所以大家可以质疑 So feel free to disagree with
科恩教授的想法 what Professor Shaye Cohen thinks
这只不过是我所理解的事情 This is just how I understand things
好的 Okay
等下 我有个问题 Wait, I do have a question about that
Annie 好的 Ah, Annie, yes
有没有这样一种可能 What about, is that possible that
是彼得 新教徒认为耶稣 Wasn't that Peter, the protestants say Jesus
耶稣告诉彼得 让他去 Didn't Jesus say Peter, you are the one
为自己建立教堂 You shall build my church, so
是的 He did
如果你现在去梵蒂冈城 And if you go to Vatican City
你还可以看到圣彼得大教堂 and you go to see a Peter's Cathedral there
还有镶金的字刻在 There is then inscription with gold layer
穹顶上 是的 around the dome, right
就在那里 就是那个地方 it's right there, that's the spot
是的 耶稣说让他 Yes, so Jesus said he had to
去修建教堂 那么 build the church, so
是的 这的问题在于 Yes, the problem is that
我们并没有彼得所写的 we don't have the Letter to the Romans
罗马书 一章非常传奇的文字 a legend articulation written by Peter
前提是他写过这些信 Assuming he wrote such letters
而我们有保罗所执笔的 We have those written by Paul
而保罗所写的信 And those written by Paul
对后来的基督教形成 have had enormous influence on
有着巨大的影响 the shaping of Christianity
那我们知道彼得是怎么想的吗 Do we know what Peter thought
不知道的 因为彼得仅仅是 No, cos Peter is only a figure
使徒行书中的一个人物 in the Book of Acts
当然也出现在了福音书中 and in the Gospels of course
在使徒行书的结尾部分 At the end of Book of Acts
当然他也被提及过几次 And also, he's mentioned a few times
在保罗的信中 in Paul's letters
最著名的就是在加拉太书:2 most famously in Chapter 2 of Galatians
非常有名的一个场景 with the famous scene
彼得来到安提阿 of Peter coming to Antioch
希腊人认为彼得行为不得当 Greek accuses Peter of not acting properly
因此保罗和彼得其实关系 So Paul and Peter were not always
没有那么好 on the best of terms
请讲 Yes
我想问一下彼得前书和彼得后书 Question, what about 1 and 2Peter?
彼得前书和彼得后书 What about first and second Peter?
不好意思 我没太明白 Oh, what does what about mean?
你的意思是说 从文献和他的名字看来 You mean, as far as literature or his name
这些书信都比较短小 Those are small letters
好吧 Okay
这些书信并没有那么大的影响力 Those letters don't have the same power of
像加拉太书 罗马书 哥林多书一样 Galatians, Romans, Corinthians
这些都是比较大的书信 Which are big letters
这些就是小的了 Those are small
很难在这些书信的基础上成就大事 Right, it's hard to build a rock on these letters
很难在他们的基础上建立教会 Build a church on those letters, right?
好的 那么我们继续 Okay, anyway, let's move along
就像我刚才说的 这些是大问题 and as I said, these are big questions
好的 那我们回到刚才的内容 Okay, so back to where I was
那么现在的问题是 So, questions then
如果这些在保罗的眼中是真的 If this be true in Paul's eyes
那么他就面临着两个非常大的 then Paul has two very large
难题需要解决 and difficult questions to address
一个问题出现在罗马书中 One in the Letter to the Romans
犹太人的地位是什么 What is the status of the Jews
作为那个民族的成员 the members of that ethnic group
种族的成员 that descent group
保罗自己就是其中的一份子 of which Paul himself is a member
耶稣也曾经身归其中 which Jesus had been a member, right
那么那些不相信基督 What is the status of Jews
的犹太人地位如何 who do not believe in Christ?
没有享受基督的恩赐的人怎样呢 Who do not share their dispensation?
他们在什么位置 Where are they?
他们如何进入新的神圣的国度 How do they fit into the new divine economy?
他们的地位如何 What their place in the map
他们在新世界地图中是什么位置 of the new map of the world?
这都是问题 That's the questions
保罗在罗马书中就在纠缠这些 that Paul grapples with in Romans
尤其是第二章 Especially in Chapter 2
还有最著名的 And also, most famously
在最后的三个章节中 9 10 11 those last three chapters, 9, 10 and 11
我布置大家去读了 I asked you to look at
但是这些文章都是非常难懂的 but these are very difficult things to read
但是大家至少看一看 But at least have a brief
了解一下 Please look at them, right
这其中保罗在纠缠 Where Paul is grappling with
这一系列的问题 this set of these questions
另外一个问题就是说 The other question is
如果在基督中再也没有犹太和非犹太人之分 If there is no longer Jew and gentile in Christ
因为救赎到来之时 Because our salvation comes
并不是通过基督的后裔 not through the descent group of Christ
而可能通过的方式是 That presumably what will imply
通过基督 or rather, through Christ
这就是说 That will suggest that
救赎并不是通过Torah降临的 salvation comes not through the Torah
而且保罗也是这样说的 And indeed it's what Paul says
保罗在加拉太书中就是这么说的 That's what Paul says in Galatians
那么Torah的位置何在 So where does that leave the Torah
上帝的启示 训诫位置何在 revelation from God, the Commandments?
这样我们又在什么位置 Where does that leave us?
这就是加拉太书的主题 That's a subject of Galatians
不用我说 And needless to say
这两个非常难解答的问题 on these two very difficult questions
保罗没有给出我们 where Paul has not given the
怎么说呢 what shall we say
最直接明了的答案 the clearest, simplest of answers
也就解释了为什么直到今天 Which explains why scholars to this very day
我们还在争论 debate and argue about
保罗具体是什么意思 what exactly does Paul mean
不管怎么说 我希望 Any case, I wanna focus
在这里能够集中讲这两个罗马书的问题 here on these two points in Romans
下面我们说后裔 So the descent group
以色列人仍旧是上帝的后裔 Israel remains the descent group
是上帝的子民 Israel remains the peoplehood
身为以色列人 They are Israelites
他们拥有上帝儿子的名分 上帝的荣耀 There are the sonship, the glory
诸约 律法 covenants, giving of the Law
圣殿敬拜和各种应许 蒙拣选的族长 the worship, the promises, the patriarchs
使他们的先祖 基督降世也是 And from them, according to the flesh
做以色列人 is Christ
因此保罗认识到犹太人 So Paul recognizes that the Jewish people
犹太人 或者说是以色列人 the Jews, Israel, to use his language
他们仍然在血肉上是以色列人 remains Israelites after the flesh
他们是上帝的子民 They are the people of God
他们有我们所谓的历史 They had, what shall we say, history
在血脉之中 on their side
他们有Torah They had the Torah
他们有和上帝的契约 they had the covenant
你不能否认这一点 You can't deny it, there it is
另一方面呢 On the other hand
我们还有一个新以色列的概念 we have the new Israel
也就是通过信念而建成的以色列 which is Israel of faith
或者我把它叫做 获得地位 还记得吗 Or I'm calling it achievement, remember?
我周三说过这个知识点的 on Wednesday I spoke about
这与拉比思想中两个极端是一样的 the same two poles in rabbinic thinking
以色列是后裔 Right, Israel is the descent group
是这样描述的 That's description
而与此同时 At the same token
我们也同意非犹太人改宗 we accept gentiles to convert
这就是获得的地位 是通过信念 That's achievement, that's by faith
现在也有了同样的矛盾 Here had the same tension
以色列是肉体上的种群 Israel is after the flesh, but
但是并非所有以色列生的都是真以色列人 Not all who are from Israel are Israel
并非所有亚伯拉罕的孩子都是后代 And not all of Abraham's children are seed
只有以撒生的才可算为你的后代 but through Isaac shall they call your seed
因此 在保罗看来 So, for Paul then
旧的以色列 the old Israel has been
被一个新的以色列推到一边 pushed aside by a new Israel
以色列所生的 the Israelite after the flesh
已经区分开来 is not the same with the
精神上的以色列 Israel after the spirit
这意味着什么呢 同学们 So what does that mean, class?
是不是说 Does that mean that
上帝拒绝了我们的子民 "Has God rejected us people?"
才不会 By no means
在我看来 保罗遇到了难题 Here I would say, Paul is caught
逻辑上讲 保罗应该说 Logically of course, Paul should say
上帝是不是拒绝了我们子民 是的 Has God rejected us people? Yes
他应该这样说 That's what he should say
因为以色列拒绝了上帝 Because Israel has rejected God
以色列不再被包括在 Or Israel is no longer clued in
变幻莫测的上帝的国 to the changing divine economy
在上帝的地图中 to the divine map
因此保罗应当断定 So Paul should conclude
以色列是被上帝拒绝了 Yes, Israel has been rejected
但当然了 But of course
保罗不能自己这么说 Paul cannot bring himself to say that
可能因为保罗本身也是一位犹太人 Perhaps because Paul is a Jew himself
结果就是他陷入了 the result is he gets
这些错综复杂的百转曲折之中 this extraordinary twists and turns
而他所说的话则影响深远 which he gets rhetorically very effective
即便他想要勾画出 even if he tries to map out
在之后的时间里勾勒出来 outline his answer later on
大家读后就会明白 After you read it, you'll realize
你肯定抓耳挠腮之后 明白 You'll scratch your head and realize
自己根本不知道他在说什么 I don't understand what he's talking about
就是这样 Precisely
当然没有 By no means
以色列人努力追求 却一无所得 Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking
只有蒙拣选的人得到了 The elect obtained it
其他的人都变得顽固不化 but the rest were hardened
以色列人一失足就再也爬不起来了吗 Have they stumbled so as to fall?
当然不是 恰恰相反 By no means! Of course not
因他们的过犯 But through their stumbling
救恩临到了外族人 salvation has come to the gentiles
我现在没有时间 Anyway, I don't have time to
为大家一一讲解 walk through this now
总而言之 我只不过想告诉大家 In any case, I'm just indicating
在保罗看来 that for Paul
这个关于 the question of
以色列子民身份的问题 the status of the people of Israel
在这种新的分配制度 新的时代中 in the new age in this dispensation
是一个迷 rings a puzzle
其中折射出来的意思非常纠结 Right, it sends out very conflicting signals
他对待Torah都没有这么纠结 He's much less conflicted about the Torah
因为他也没有特别确信 Cos he's not absolutely convinced
救赎 或者说扶上上帝的正路 that salvation or being put right with God
他用的表述是 释罪 The term he uses is justification
扶上上帝的正路 being put right with God
不再是Torah的功用 is no longer a function of the Torah
不是训诫的功用 and the Commandments
而是笃信上帝的结果 But rather is a function of faith in Christ
在这一点上 他毫不含糊 At that point, he's pretty unequivocal
然而对于以色列的地位 新时代的犹太人 But the status of Israel, Jews in the new age
在这些问题上他非常含糊 on that point is completely equivocal
这就是保罗 That's Paul
关于保罗我要讲的就是这些 That's all I'm gonna say about Paul
大家有什么问题或者看法吗 Someone has a question or an observation?
我在这里插一句嘴 Right, just a brief aside for a second
在1960年代 When the 1960s
第二次梵蒂冈会议中设定了目标 the second Vatican Council set about its task
希望能够重新认定 重新考虑 of trying to reconfigure, reconsider
天主教教会 how the church, the catholic church
与世界中的非天主教教会的关系 relates to non-Catholics in the world
在此其中 犹太人 Among them, Jews
在我们重新考虑犹太人地位的时候 Right, for our reconsideration of Jews
我们所选取的圣经文段 the Biblical passage
用来供他们重新考量 on which they based their reconsideration
就是罗马书9-11 was Romans 9-11
上帝有没有拒绝他的子民 Alright, has God rejected his people?
当然没有 By no means
大家也看到了 There you've got it
现在这个段落 Right, now was a passage which
成为圣经中对 comes to Scriptural basis for
在天主教重新考虑 Catholic reconsideration of
犹太人地位时的基础 what's about the Jews
Annie请讲 Yes, Annie
我们上节课曾经说过 So we talk about last time how
如果你是犹太人 If you are, like a Jew
如果你是上帝的子民 if you are one of the chosen peoples
那你的地位要比改宗的犹太人要高 对吗 kind of better than being a convert to Judaism?
我的意思是 犹太人 Yes, I mean Jews are the one
制定的标准 to make all the rules
所以我们的地位的确要高过那些其他人 So we do rank a little higher than those
你懂吧 You know, right?
那么如果你是一个犹太人 Yes, so if you were a Jew
然后可能改宗去信仰了基督教 who then kind of converted to Christianity
那这时这个犹太人 Does that mean that like
是已经身居高层吗 put you on the top of the piles
因为你已经是上帝的子民了 than if you were already the chosen people?
第一个问题其实是动词的问题 Alright, first problem is what verb to use, right
在保罗的眼中 犹太人是不是改宗基督教 Does a Jew convert to Christianity in Paul's eyes
其实我也不知道这么说对不对 I'm not sure that's the right verb to use
我也不知道该怎么说 I'm not sure what verb to use
但是的确 But alright, let's
那么他认为基督是上帝吗 Does he recognized Christ is the?
保罗看来 这些都是一样的 Right, then for Paul, you are the same
保罗认为 外邦人 apparently in Paul's eyes as a gentile
现代纯种的异教徒和犹太人都是一样的 a blue-blooded pagan from current?
你可能一辈子都在 Right, who's been eating fruit
食用献祭给偶像的水果 sacrificed to the idols all his life?
或者曾经参与过 And he's been otherwise engaged
通奸啊 罪孽啊 in fornication and sin
现在你已经得到了精神上的救赎 and has now been possessed by the spirit
你认同上帝的真理 and acknowledging the truth of God
也就是说 通过基督 namely, through Christ
你和这位异教徒 Apparently, you and this pagan
犹太人 种族上的犹太人 You, Jews, ethnically Jew
还有你 种族上的希腊人 异教徒 外邦人 and you, ethnic Greek, pagan, gentile
你们的地位都是一样的 You apparently rank the same
因为再也没有犹太人和希腊人 There is no longer Jew or Greek
那既然这样 特殊的地位不就是 So that also, special status are just kind of
属于一直固定的吗 还是 locked or what, you can just like
保罗有没有像我这样说这么清楚 Yes, does Paul say this as explicitly as I am?
他有没有像我这么是非分明 Does he acknowledge this as black and white
这么非黑即白地表述呢 没有 unambiguously as I am, no he does not
我觉得这就是他的意思 But I think that's what he means
他知道自己的环境使他不能这么清楚地说出 he know he can't quite bring himself to say it
那曾经有没有一些 Was there some kind of like
就好比说是地位的下降呢 deterioration of the status, you know?
还是说 Or was it just like
基督一来到 就好像说 as soon as Christ came it was like
关于这个问题嘛 Well, that's, yes, well, you have
世界分为三个阶段 three stages in the world
在基督降临之前是一个阶段 Right, there's a world before Christ
然后基督在世的时候是一个阶段 Then was a time when Christ was here
接着在基督死后又是一个阶段 then there's a time after Christ
而犹太人不认可这种说法 Okay, Jews don't acknowledge this
犹太人只是认为 Jews just think there's
世界按照Torah的存在一分为二 the time when Torah has been in the world
在Torah之前是一个阶段 There's time before the Torah
而在Torah之后又是一个阶段 There's time after the Torah
还有什么呢 What more is there to say?
但是对基督徒来说 Right, but for Christians
而且很明显我觉得保罗认为 And for Paul, clearly I think
这在使徒行书中也有印证 It was only in the Book of Acts
世界分为三个阶段 you have three stages
基督前时代 基督时代 Before Christ, the time of Christ
基督后时代 and then After Christ
造成这种区别的原因 在我看来是 And that's, the way to my knowledge is
世界版图在保罗看来 the map of the world, according to Paul
已经被改变 has been changed
上帝重新勾画了 God has redrawn the
世界的民族社会地图 ethnic social map of the world
而犹太人并不认同这一点 Jews don't acknowledge this
他们仍旧认为世界分为犹太人和非犹太人 they still think there are Jews and gentiles
在保罗看来 in Paul's eyes
但是保罗说 不是的 But Paul says, no
世界地图已经被改变了 the map of the world has been changed
这位同学 我觉得你好像在蓄谋什么 Yes, Bee you look at it, you go into plots
在我说到我们从哪来的时候 as we say where we come from
我以前认为是 I was under the impression that
保罗非常清楚 犹太基督教徒 Paul was very clear that Jewish Christians
需要继续遵循律法 needed to continue and follow the law
而且他还教育这些基督教徒 and he taught Christians in question
好的 他说保罗认为 Okay, Bee observes that Paul thinks that
笃信基督的犹太人 Jews who believe in Christ
需要继续遵循律法 need to continue to observe the law
这个命题争议很大 That is a much contested
经历过许多讨论 much debated proposition
但是这点我同意 I happen to agree with it
所有的保罗的文献 that all of Paul's texts are
都反对遵从律法 against the observance of the law
最著名的就是反对割礼 The most famously against circumcision
后来在加拉太书中也有印证 and later to the Galatians
关于这一点我写过一些注释 Upon which I wrote annotations
就在我的《犹太注释新约》中 in the Jewish Annotated New Testament
刚才给大家说过了 Which I referred you
给大家展现了这些精彩的段落 for a brilliant exposition of the text
好了 回到正题 Right, back to where I was
这些关于割礼的著名文段 All those appalling texts on circumcision
以及关于遵从律法 等等 and observance of the law and so on
都是指向非犹太人 They are all directed to gentiles
他的听众都是非犹太人 Right, his audience are gentiles
也就是说 保罗请求他们 忠告他们 Namely, asking them, exhorting them
鼓励他们 encouraging them
我求求大家了 please please please
不要进行割礼 don't become circumcised
我请求大家不要认为 please please please don't think
你们获得上帝的救赎 that you obtain salvation with God
是可以通过遵从Torah达到的 through observance of the Torah
这些都已经过时了 That's not how we do it anymore
那么保罗对他的犹太族听众说什么 What would Paul say to the audience of Jews?
他会对他们说 要相信基督 He would say to them has faith in Christ
当然他还会说 Of course, he would say, right
要对基督有信念 Believe, believe in Christ
他当然会这么说 Of course he would say
他会跟犹太人还说 What did he say to Jews
好吧 既然这样 Well, now, you can, you know
你们如果想的话 You can go to the mall
是可以周六下午去商场的 on Saturday afternoon if you want
可以在逾越节吃发酵的面包 Eat white bread during Passover
吃龙虾 and you know, eat lobster
你可以在这里与律法一刀两断 You know, finally break up, you know
他会这样告诉犹太人吗 Is that what you say to Jews?
还是他会告诉他们 Or who would say to them
不不不 大家要继续遵循安息日 No, no, no, keep observing Sabbath
食物律法 诸如此类 and food laws and everything else
不是用赞美基督代替从前的规矩 but also add to it praising Christ
而是在从前的基础上赞美基督 Not substitute, but add
还是他会这样说呢 Is that what you would say?
梵蒂冈会议之后 大屠杀之后这期间 Well, the new post-Vatican to post-Holocaust
普世的保罗会这么说 ecumenical Paul is that one
保罗会告诉犹太人 Right, Paul talking to Jews and tell Jews
你们还要继续遵循Torah的训诫 但要明白 You keep observing the Torah but understand
你们的圆满是通过基督获得 the fulfillment is through Christ
所以赞美基督是要 which is added to
在遵循Torah律法 put upon atop of
的基础上进行 observance of the Torah
非犹太人无需如此 Gentiles don't have to
因为他们是非犹太人 because they are gentiles
但是保罗从来没有一清二楚 Paul does nowhere says explicitly
明明白白 毫不含糊地 clearly, unambiguously
说过我刚才的表述 what I just said
而从前的保罗 Alright, the old Paul was
认为所有的人都不用再遵循Torah he was setting aside the Torah for everybody
大屠杀之前的保罗这么认为 as the pre-Holocaust Paul
好的 再告诉一下大家 Alright, once again
我们这是深水行舟 we are swimming in very deep waters now
所以我要汲汲水 So I'm going to cut the pool
打个比方 to makes metaphors
可以吗 Okay?
有些人认为我们应该开一门 Some ideas we should have a course
新约和早期基督教的课程 on New Testament and early Christianity
这非常明显 是吧 I mean, that's clear, right?
我觉得本科生需要上这样的课 I think undergraduates need such a course
好吧 要是没人开这个课 Well, no one else are doing it
可能我会开 I might do it
好了 大家还有问题吗 Okay, any questions?
好的 接下来看看我们的朋友游斯丁 Okay, let's now go to our friend Justin
与保罗不同 游斯丁生来就是非犹太人 希腊人 Unlike Paul, Justin was born a gentile, a Greek
也就是说 如果我 So if Shaye Cohen is correct
在冥思的时候想的没错 in his arm-chair cycle analysis
那么保罗 that Paul somehow
对这些问题很纠结 conflicted about these matters
因为他本身就是犹太人 because he himself is a Jew
他视自己为犹太人 sees himself as a Jew
从来没有说自己不是犹太人 and nowhere claims not to be a Jew
而与此相反 on the contrary
在腓力比书那段著名的话中 in this famous passage in Philippians
他大声宣布自己是犹太人 he loudly proclaims his Jewish credentials
结果保罗就遇到了困难 and consequently Paul is conflicted
究竟如何去解释 about how to exactly explain
犹太人怎样被选择 how Jews, how the ball
失去了子民的身份 放低了身份 they lost the ball, they dropped the ball
跌倒后但是并没有跌倒 they fumble, but they didn't fumble
他们仍然是上帝的子民 但是不再是 They are God's people still, but they are not
因此大家可以看到 Right, so Paul is, you know
保罗是被困在其中 sort of caught in twists in between
游斯丁则没有为类似的模糊概念犯难 Justin does not suffer from these ambiguities
生活在保罗之后一个世纪的游斯丁是希腊人 For Justin, a century after Paul, a Greek
他可以直接说 He can say flat out
犹太人曾经是上帝子民 Jews had the ball, well
我接着上面的说法来 I followed that metaphor
他们跌倒了 失掉了身份 于是出局了 They fumbled, they lost, they are out
结束 Period
这里我们又看到了 So here we found again
替代主义的教义 the doctrine of supersessionism
非常明显 very explicitly, right
基督教取代了犹太教 where Christianity supersedes Judaism
这个单词 that word appears
大家可以在讲义的下一页看到 on the next page of the handout
那么我们在游斯丁中看到什么呢 Okay, so what do we see in Justin?
游斯丁非常明白地说 Justin is very explicit
我在这里就不完整读了 I'm not gonna read the passages
都在这儿为大家写得非常清楚 They are all laid out very clearly for you
我们基督教徒是亚伯拉罕的孩子 We Christians are the children of Abraham
我们是上帝的神圣民族 we are God's holy people
我们是上帝的子民 we are God's chosen people
以赛亚说以色列 When Isaiah talks about Israel
说末日的时候 at the end of days
他其实说的是我们 he is talking about us
然后我们问基督教徒 Then we ask Christians
他们也会说 说的不是你们 And again, not about you, right?
这个大家都理解 That's understood
这里 大家可以看到 This is, you know
这里对话的含义并不是大家都认可 This is not ecumenical discourse here
并不是双方达成一致的 It's not both of us
咱们为什么不能协调协调 好好说话呢 Why don't we play nicely together?
不行 不行 No, no, no
是我们 不是你们 Us, not you
接下来他说 Okay, therefore, he says
就好像你们曾经 Just as you, once upon a time
是以色列的雅各 were called Jacob in Israel
以及种种 and everything else
现在我们是以色列的雅各 Now that's we, who are called Jacob of Israel
以及种种 and everything else
我在这里就不给大家读这段了 Okay, I'm not going to read these passages
等等等 Blablabla
游斯丁认为 基督教徒的确是一个民族 For Justin, Christians do have a peoplehood
我已经给大家提到过 I have already mentioned that
游斯丁有一种很独特的千禧年主义思想 Justin has this very odd, millennium view
基督教的千禧年主义 View of Christian millennism
他认为末日降临时 Where he thinks the end of days
基督将会重建耶路撒冷城 Christ will rebuild the city of Jerusalem
将会在辉煌中统治 and will their reign in glory
稳坐王位一百年 for a thousand year reign
这听起来很类似 Which sounds like often like
犹太人对于末日的观点 the Jewish view of the end of days
我已经给大家评价过 as I've already commented
游斯丁仍旧有一些 Right, so Justin still has some
基督教民族的想法 notion of Christian peoplehoods
他认为基督教徒将要获得统治地位 that Christians are gonna rule
不是在天堂上的耶路撒冷 not in some heavenly Jerusalem
不是在什么比喻中的耶路撒冷 not in some metaphoric Jerusalem
不是在寓言中的 not in some allegorical
象征性的耶路撒冷或者锡安 symbolic Jerusalem or Zion
而是在真正的耶路撒冷城 No, the real city of Jerusalem
这种观点很奇怪的 This is very odd
考虑到其他因素 这种观点就是很奇怪 This is odd, given everything else
但是游斯丁仍旧是这么想的 But Justin still has that
当然了 对于大部分基督教徒来说 But any case, for most Christians of course
这些事物都是象征性的 比喻的 these things are all symbolic, metaphorical
是吧 right
基督教徒是新的上帝子民 Christians are the new chosen people
游斯丁说 as Justin says
基督教徒是上帝的以色列 Christians are the God's Israel
游斯丁说 as Justin says
他们是雅各 以色列 道 等等 They are Jacob, Israel, logos, terms
一切适用于末日 All the promises that
所做的承诺 applied to the end of days
都适用于基督教徒 applied to us Christians
圣经中描述的辉煌的未来 All the glorious future described in Scripture
都属于我们基督教徒 belong to us Christians
但是对大部分基督教徒来说 But for most Christians, right?
这样的观点当然会被理解成为 These views of course are understood to be
并不是在真正的耶路撒冷城中 not the actual literal city of Jerusalem
并不是在真正的圣地上 not the actual literal holy land
这些应该是比喻 是象征 These are meant to be metaphors or symbols
我周一的课上也告诉大家了 锡安 Zion, as I discussed briefly on Monday
游斯丁在这一点上非常奇怪 Justin on this point has something odd
我也不知道他怎么会有这种想法 I'm not quite sure why he's got this
会认为真正会有一个千年的上帝的王国 This actual millennial kingdom of God
在耶路撒冷城中 in the city of Jerusalem
但是就这样吧 我也搞不太清楚 But okay, there it is, I can't quite figure out
他有许多的圣经类型 He's got a bunch of Biblical typologies
来支持自己的论点 backing this up
我们这里有被拒绝的孩子 which we have the rejected child
受喜爱的孩子 the beloved child
当然对游斯丁来说 这是非常明显的 And of course for Justin, it's very obvious
受喜爱的孩子是我们 基督教徒 the beloved child is us, Christians
而在这个类型里被拒绝的孩子是你们 the rejected child in these typologies is you
你们犹太人 You Jews
无需赘言 当犹太人读到这里的时候 Needless to say, when Jews read
读到同样的圣经故事 those same Biblical stories
同样的类型 and the same typology
他们会接受这种说法但是会调转一下 They accept these typology but reversed
那么谁是雅各 谁是以扫 So who is Jacob and who is Esau?
雅各是受喜爱的孩子 Jacob the beloved son
以扫是有问题的孩子 Esau the problematic son
谁又是谁呢 Which one is which?
如果你是基督教徒 这就很明显 Well, if you are a Christian, that's obvious
我们犹太人是雅各 Right, we Jews are Jacob
不对 我们基督教徒是雅各 we Christians are Jacob
你们犹太人是以扫 and you Jews are Esau
如果你是犹太人的话 也很明显 and if you are a Jew, it's just as obvious
我们犹太人是雅各 We Jews are Jacob
你们基督教徒是以扫 and you Christians are Esau
非常明显 很简单的事儿 Very clear, that's very simple
但是当然了 这些都可以颠倒 But of course, it could be the opposite
非彼即此 One or the other
Annie请讲 Yes, Annie
雅各是被拣选的 没错 I guess Jacob is chosen
但是大家真的愿意做雅各吗 But do you really wanna be Jacob
雅各不应该是个骗子吗 cos doesn't Jacob even a deceiver?
因为雅各所做的事 and Jacob kind of
我明白了 你肯定上的是主日学校 Ah I see, you are the Sunday school, right
我明白了 是的 I see that, yes, exactly
如果大家去读这其中的叙事 Yes, if you actually read the narratives
不仅仅是摘要 Not just in the abstract
大家要去读其中的故事 but actually read the stories
就会发现这其中的叙事者 You see that the narrator has a narrator
我们学术圈里称其为J we the Bible biz called J
创世记中的叙事者 but the narrator in the Book of Genesis
我们就姑且认为他是摩西吧 That's called it Moses, right
非常同情以扫 has extraordinary sympathy for Esau
把他描绘成 I mean, he's depicted
非常值得同情的角色 in very sympathetic characters
他年纪比较小 也更聪明 as if, you know, he's younger, smarter
活蹦乱跳的 围着他们转 buzzing around, circles around them
但是可怜的以扫最后什么都没得到 and poor Esau winds up with nothing
而雅各却满载而归 when Jacob sort of grabs everything
雅各并不全都是受青睐的角色 Jacob is not entirely a preferably figure
叙事者将他描绘成 the way the narrator describes it
叙事者一定是 even though the narrator surely
叙事者必然是 the narrator is
以色列民族的一员 a member of the people of Israel
他将自己视为雅各的后裔 who see themselves as descent from Jacob
而不是出自以扫 not from Esau
这些对于叙事者来说 So these are extraordinary
都是非常宏大的工程 work of the narrator to take
你之前所熟知的角色 the figure whom you know
反倒成了失败者 in advance is the loser
而用某种方式将他们描绘成 And somehow makes them
值得同情的角色 a sympathetic figure
而雅各也不总是一个骗子的角色 And Jacob is not always a trickster figure
作为骗子的主角也不总是 And trickster heroes are not always
值得尊敬的 他们是骗子 admirable heroes, so tricksters
没错 你问了一个 Ah, yes, you put your finger
非常有趣的问题 on an interesting problem
这些并没有困扰犹太人和基督教徒 That did not bother later Jews and Christians
因为他们认为很明显 for whom it was very obvious
雅各是契约的承担者 that Jacob is the bearer of the covenant
是以色列民族的缔造者 the founder of people of Israel
雅各就是以色列 Jacob is Israel
他的十二三个孩子就是后来的十二部落 His 12, 13 sons provide the 12 tribes, right
我们的赌注是押在雅各身上的 It's our plane ticket is on Jacob's plane
而以扫必将流落 And Esau is going wander off
在犹大的某个角落 in Judea somewhere
茹毛饮血 射杀猎物什么的 Be Esau, go hunt wild animals
这就是以扫 Right, that's Esau
好的 Right, okay
这些话题我们都会涉及 So that's something to talk about
如果你选修我们的 when take your course on
希伯来圣经入门课 Intro to the Hebrew Bible
我们会讨论创世记叙事者 is the amazing skill or artistry of
高超的叙事技巧 或者说艺术 the narrator of the Book of Genesis
能够激发你的同情心 Right, that being able to bring out sympathy
即便是那些 even for the characters you know
非英雄 反英雄角色 is "Not the hero", the antihero
好的 Okay, good
你在主日学校认真听课了 You paid attention in Sunday school
Annie 非常好 Annie, that's good
好的 我觉得可以讨论今天的重点了 Okay, I think I'm ready now to my big points
基督教对犹太教 Christianity vs. Judaism
我准备好了 I'm all up to that
屏幕上已经打出来了吗 Are we up to there on the screen?
基督教对犹太教 Christianity vs. Judaism
大家对这些有问题吗 So, questions on these things?
读读游斯丁 So read Justin
他政治错误得简直就不可理喻 Justin is about as politically incorrect as can be
在这一点上 On this point
尤其是对于大屠杀过后的基督教徒 Especially for a post-Holocaust Christian
他们在尝试对犹太人示好的过程中 who is trying hard to be nice to Jews
游斯丁这些文段都很棘手 Justin is a problematic text
好的 现在我们开始讨论 Okay, let's now talk about
基督教对犹太教 Christianity vs. Judaism
他们的世界观 The view of the world
他们眼中的自己和别人 themselves vis-a-vis others
犹太人的世界观 So, the Jewish view of the world
是分为两极的 is a bipolar one
是双重的 right, it is dualistic
分为犹太人和非犹太人 There are Jews and there are gentiles
我认为基督教徒的世界观 I would argue the Christians' view of the world
也是差不多的 is more or less the same thing
有基督教徒 There are Christians
还有保罗所谓的希腊人 and there are what Paul calls Greeks
也就是外邦人 也就是非基督教徒 Which means, gentiles, i.e., non-Christians
非基督教徒 non-Christians
其中主要的区别 The major differences
其中有两个主要的区别 There are two major differences
存在于这种两极的世界观中 in these two bipolar view of the world
第一 犹太人将自己视为 One is that Jews see themselves
一个民族 as an ethnic group
而基督教徒则不 Christians do not
而第二点 And second of all
世界上的犹太人约为1200万 there are around 12 million Jews in the world
但是基督教徒 and there are around
全世界有差不多1亿 1 billion Christians in the world
这样一来犹太人的观点 Which perhaps makes the Jewish view
似乎就有些难以接受 a little harder to accept
就觉得 你们行不行啊 这样 I mean, please, really, really?
你们觉得除了你们 And the whole rest of the world
世界都一样 is all the same?
这好像有些说不过去吧 Doesn't make terribly much sense
但是这其实是很典型的 But this is the way, typically the way
少数群体看世界的方法 a minority groups will look at the world
阿尔巴尼亚人看世界也是觉得 Right, Albanians look at the world also
只有阿尔巴尼亚人和非阿尔巴尼亚人 as Albanians and non-Albanians
我是说 大家懂的 I mean, you know
其实你需要知道的也就是这些 that's really what you need to know
这就是非常典型的 Right, so this is this typical way
少数群体看世界的方式 for a minority to view the world
我知道世界上 So, I know there are only
只有少则1200万 多则1500万的犹太人 12 or 15 million Jews in the world
真心不多 但是 Not very much, but
这就是他们看世界的方式啊 Hey, that's how they look at the world
这是很常见的少数民族观点 Minority's view regularly
接下来的一个要点 Next bullet point
基督教徒过去现在都将自己视为 Christians saw and see themselves
上帝的新子民 as the new chosen people
这是我们的朋友游斯丁的观点 This is our friend Justin
对吧 我们是以色列 Right? We are Israel
我们基督教徒是以色列 We Christians are Israel
我们是上帝拣选的子民 We are God's chosen people
我们是承担他的契约的后人 We are the heirs to the covenant
我们基督教徒取代了你们犹太人 We, Christians, replace you Jews
成为上帝的子民 as God's chosen people
而契约现在是我们的 而不是你们的 And the covenant applies to us not to you
游斯丁表述得非常明白 This is explicit in Justin
而这种想法会在基督教思想中持续下去 and this will endure in Christian thought
从游斯丁的时代 2世纪开始 from Justin's time, the second century
一直到20世纪的某个时期 down to sometime in the 20th century
甚至在一些基督教的圈子里 And in some Christian circles
在21世纪仍旧适用 into the 21st century
最重要的事件是大屠杀 It's a Holocaust more than anything else
改变了基督教徒对这件事情 and has jarred Christian thinking
的想法 on this subject
可能这不是什么好事 Gee, maybe it wasn't nice, but
这种看待犹太人的方式 the way you look at the Jews
这一条教义叫做替代主义 This doctrine is called supersessionism
从单词替代而来 Right? From the word supersede
我在这个课程的第一天就告诉过你们 And as I told you the first day of class
如果你们拼成supercede If you spell supersede with the C
我立马给不及格 I'm gonna flunk you instantly
好吧 替代这个单词 Okay, the word supersede
中并没有字母c does not have a C in it
是从拉丁文supersedere而来 Right? From Latin, supersedere
啊 曾几何时 Ah, once upon a time
哈佛学生是懂拉丁文的 Harvard student knew Latin
那么谁才是真正的以色列 Who then is the true Israel?
这成为中世纪时期 This became a topic of polemic discourse
犹太教徒和基督教徒之间 in the high middle ages
一个争论不休的话题 between Jews and Christians
每个教派都在捍卫自己的真理 Each defending its own truth
这个话题就是Verus Israel The topic is called Verus Israel
拉丁文 译出来就是真正的以色列 From Latin phrase true Israel
谁是真正的以色列呢 Who is the true Israel?
这个在犹太人和基督教徒之间的辩论 This debate between Jews and Christians
关于谁是真正的以色列 of who is the true Israel
大家可以在中世纪鼎盛时期看到 which you see in the high middle ages
并非是围绕基因的延续性展开的 is not a debate about biological continuity
我们在这里并不是讨论 We are not talking here about
基因储备什么的 genetic stock and such
很显然我们是在 We are obviously talking
讨论神学的地位 about theological status
谁是契约的拥有者 Who has the covenant?
上帝是与谁定下了契约 Right, with whom this God has the covenant?
是我们犹太人吗 Is it us Jews?
还是你们基督教徒 Or is it you Christians?
还是相反 Or the reverse
我们基督徒 你们犹太教徒 Us Christians, you Jews, right
这成为中世纪鼎盛时期的一个话题 This became the topic in the high middle ages
我们可以读到很多基督教的作品 And you have numerous Christian works
都是在中世纪鼎盛时期就这个话题所写的 written in the high middle ages on this subject
而作为回应 And in response to them
也有许多犹太教的作品 there are numerous Jewish works
做出反对基督教的辩论 Which are anti-Christian polemics
来捍卫犹太教的真理 to defend Jewish truth claims
而反对基督教的真理 and to reject Christian truth claims
这里 Here
这在中世纪的鼎盛时期被称作 This known in the high middle ages as
教堂与大会堂 ecclesia et synagoga
这不仅仅成了写作中的一个比喻 This became a trope not just in writing
在文学的辩论中 也出现在艺术品里 in literary polemics but also in art
我们用它们来代表犹太人对基督教徒 Of which we represent Jews vs. Christians
犹太教对基督教 Judaism vs. Christianity
这是在巴黎圣母院 So this is at Notre-Dame de Paris
就是在这里 我们不需要去读 Here we are, we don't have to read
那一段请求了 the appeal from
好吗 Okay?
这是表现非常好的两个类型 These are well-represented two types
这边的当然是Ecclesia This over here of course is Ecclesia
就是教堂 the church
我们可以称其为圣教女神 We may say Lady Church, you might say
而这个就代表Synagoga And this represents Synagoga
我们的大会堂女神或犹太教 Or Lady Synagogue or Judaism
这是教堂 So here's the church
凯旋归来 头带皇冠 Triumphant with the crown
目视前方 手持圣棒 Looking outward with a staff
当然这个是圣餐杯 And of course here is the chalice
也就是盛放着耶稣鲜血的酒杯 or the goblet with the blood of Christ
就是我们在圣餐上所用的器皿 the same sort of items used at the Eucharist
在圣餐上 at the Eucharist
与她相对的 Contrasting with her
当然就是大会堂女神 of course is Lady Synagoga
她低着头 Right? Who is downcast
带着一顶搞笑的帽子 wears some kind of funny hat
我觉得这可能是一顶犹太族的帽子 I assume this is meant to be a frankly Jew hat
就是中世纪那时候的 I assume, from the middle ages
这边是皇冠 这边是搞笑的帽子 Here is the crown, here is the funny hat
她还垂头丧气 She's looking downward
而且当然了 她手中的棒都折断了 And of course her staff is broken
她被打败了 在这边 She is cracked, right over here
而她手中拿着什么 And here she's holding in her hands
这边我们看到的是盛着基督的血的圣杯 So here we have the chalice with Christ's blood
是圣餐中基督的救赎力量 the Eucharist, atoning power of Christ
而这边我们有的当然就是律法 Here of course we have the law
在这里代表着类似于 Which over here represent that something
十诫之类的一些事物 like the Ten Commandments, right
两个石碑 刻着律法的石碑 two tablets, tablets of the law
这成了贯穿中世纪的一个象征 This became a trope in all the middle ages
如果你去巴黎圣母院 So you go to Notre-Dame de Paris
作为游人 你肯定要照很多照片 Tourist that you are, you'll take lots of pictures
这时你就会在西门看到这个 find this on the west portal
这就是犹太大会堂 Here it has Synagoga against
犹太大会堂对比教堂 Synagoga against Ecclesia
这是在斯特拉斯堡 现在属于法国 Here's in Strasbourg, now France
曾经是属于德国的 Once upon a time Germany
但是你能看到完全一样的景物 But here you can see exactly the same thing
这是教堂 这是犹太大会堂 Here's church, here's Synagoga
大家看 向下看的空虚的眼神 Again, downcast holey eye
断掉的棍棒 等等 broken staff in hand and so on
这是中世纪的一个类型 This becomes a type in middle ages
犹太教和基督教的争端 Judaism vs. Christianity
就成了教堂和大教会的冲突 is the conflict between Ecclesia and Synagoga
好了 下一个要点 Okay, next big point
基督教徒构成了一个非种族的民族 Christians constitute a non-ethnic people
犹太人是个种族 基督教徒则不然 Right, Jews are ethnos, Christians are not
基督教有普救论 Christianity has universal claims
在中世纪的鼎盛时期 In the high middle ages
基督教的普救思想 the universal claim of Christianity
表现为这样的表述 is represented by the language of
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Extra ecclesiam nulla salus
教会之外无救赎 There is no salvation outside the church
也就是说 如果你是非基督徒 i.e., if you are non-Christian
你就要下地狱 you are going to hell
如果你是基督教的异教徒 If you are a Christian heretic
那你也要下地狱 you are going to hell
因为这样你也在教会之外 Cos you are also outside the church
可以吗 如果你的基督教没有得到 Alright? If your Christianity is not approved
主教和教皇的认可 of by the bishops and the pope
你也要下地狱 you are going to hell
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Extra ecclesiam nulla salus
这是一种普救论 So this is a universalism of a kind
而基督教在另一方面则会说 Where Christianity on the one hand says
基督教徒说 如果你在教会之外 Christians say, if you are outside the church
就没有救赎 there is no salvation
但是你能解决这个问题 But you can fix that problem
你可以成为一个基督教徒 by becoming a Christian
这不是我们嫉妒 Right, we are not jealously
守着自己的宝贝什么的 preserving this pearl for ourselves
我们愿意分享 We'll share it
你来加入教会 You come join the church
因此这就成了基督教中 Hence, there is a very powerful
非常有力的一种推动力 impulse in Christianity
在当时的那段时间 throughout the time and
在某些圈子里直到今天 in some circles to this very day
都促使着人们去传教 to missionize, alright?
因为无论如何 你是希望分享这个宝藏 Cos after all, you want to share the treasury
将这个财富分享给所有的人 want to share the wealth to everybody
如果你相信在教会之外 If you believe there is no salvation
没有救赎 outside the church
那你就有这份道德上的责任 then you are morally obligated to
去吸引 拯救人们 draw and save people
这就是基督教普救论的基础 This is the basis of Christian universalism
它自称是个普世的宗教 Right? Which claims to be a universal religion
曾经基督教思想家惧怕过 There used to be fear to Christian thinkers
他们曾经担心过所谓的 There used to fear what's often called
基督教的普救分支 a universalist strand in Christianity
我也用小字给大家打在了讲义上 Which I gave you here in the small print
这就把我们带回了Origen This goes back to Origen
曾经给出一个很值得注意的观点 who had a remarkably idea
很值得注意的观念 remarkable view
他说地狱之火 that the fires of hell
是赎罪的 而不是惩罚的 are purgative, not punitive
即使是撒旦本人也终有一天会得到净化 Even Satan himself will one day be purified
可能要在地狱里很长时间才行 May take a long time in hell, you know
因为他要丢进火里的实在太多了 you get a lot of burning-off to do
但是最终撒旦还是会被净化 But ultimate Satan too will be purified
也就是说 即便是魔鬼 In other words, even evil
也最终会被耶稣征服 will ultimately be won over
而到时魔鬼将不复存在 and evil will no longer exist
世上只有美好 there only be good
如果你相信这些 If you believe that
那么你肯定觉得这对人也适用 Well, then I guess it applies to people too
所有的非基督教徒最终都会被净化 All non-Christians ultimately will be purged
除去他们的罪和孽 of their sins and their guilt
然后他们会成为基督教徒 And they will become Christians
不管他们愿意与否都会这样 just willy-nilly automatically
这是非常值得注意的一个观点 This is a remarkable view
在基督教的历史中也是 which has come and gone
曾经出现过 in the history of Christianity
而在一些新教的范围内一直存在 and persists in some protestant circles
直到今天 to this very day
如果你相信这个观点 But if you believe this view of course
那么你就不需要去拯救任何人 then you don't really need to save anybody
因为最终他们怎么着都会被救赎的 because they'll be saved anyway ultimately
因为基督教的普救论 Cos Christian universalism
是这么说的 is expressed this way
是奥古斯丁提出了 It is Augustine who pretty much
如下观点 gives the Kabosh to this view
他认为如果这些是真的 who said if these views be true
那上帝的恩典何在 then where's the grace of God?
那当基督徒还有什么意思呢 Rather, what does it mean to be a Christian?
那我们就回到了Brandon之前问过的问题 Go back to the question that Brandon asked
我们还有什么优势呢 So what advantage do we have?
反正我们归根结底 Hey, so we are gonna wind up
结局都是相同的 in the same end anyway
不是这样的 奥古斯丁说 No, Augustine said, there's gotta be
将会有上帝的恩典 救赎 some sense here of divine grace, salvation
将会有 大家知道的 You know, you gotta, you know
你们将会得到 You gotta earn it
如果你没有 你就不是基督徒 And if you don't, you are not
这就成了基督教的思想 That became Christianity
是有这种观点存在的 对吗 But there is this view, right?
我给了大家这个简短的 And I gave you in the brief
用小字打出来的段落 大家可以看看 in the small print, you see some of the ideas
非常基本的称谓 诸灵最后复原论 The basic terms, apokatastasis
这个我不会在期末考试里问的 I won't ask you that in the final
大家不要担心 don't worry, right
但是这个观点非常值得注意 But it is a remarkable idea
这是基督教的思想 That's on the Christian side
因此基督教的普救论 So Christian universalism
就表述为这种观点 is expressed by the idea that
曾几何时 这是唯一的宗教 Once upon a time, this was the only religion
是唯一接触到圣父的方式 This was the only way to the Father
通过基督 找到圣父 Is through Christ, to get to the Father, right
教会之外无救赎 There is no salvation outside the church
但是我们基督教徒准备好了 But, we Christian are prepared
而且事实上我们也 and in fact, we are
将要出去拯救世界 get to go out and conquer the world
将基督教带到世上 Bring Christianity to the world
因此我们才会有这么些传教 That's why we have all these missions
因此我们才会有 And that's why we have
基督教徒在非洲着陆 Christian and dockers in Africa
在那里开诊所 you know, bringing medical clinics
我们可能说 好的一面是 We might say, the good side is
在我们政治正确的看法来说 in our politically correct perspective is
这是出于人文关怀 there is a concern for humanity
而这是基督教思想的一部分 built into Christian thinking
他们会关注外邦人 They have concerns for one's Other
这是我们基督教徒应该做的 That's we Christians have to do
而从犹太教的角度看 则有些不同 On the Jewish side, it's a little different
而犹太人的角度则包含着种族因素 Jewish side is very much ethnic
他们毕竟还是一个民族 Still, it's peoplehood
这种意义上说 社会的角度看来 It's in that sense, socially speaking
就更加狭隘 narrower
目前为止 经典的犹太教 And in so far, as classical Judaism
在发展的过程中认为 as it develops in antiquity says
非犹太人不需要改宗犹太教 Gentiles don't need to convert to Judaism
去获得上帝的青睐 to find favor in God's eyes
他们只需要 All they have to be are
遵守律法 遵从道德 law-observant moral people
这就足够了 不用其他 And that's adequate, sufficient
在上帝的眼中 他们就可以得到救赎 in God's eyes for them to be saved
用基督教的说法 use Christian language
或者犹太人会说 Or Jewish language
他们会在未来的世界中占据一席 have a share in the world to come
如果这是真的 那我为什么还要 If that be true, then I have no reason
想送传教士去博茨瓦纳 to wanna send up missionaries to Botswana
博茨瓦纳的子民 People in Botswana
上帝会帮助他们照顾自己的 God help them to take care of themselves
因此犹太教也有普救思想 So Judaism too has universalist claims
但当然他们的这种观点 But of course universalist claims
表达出来就非常不同了 are expressed very differently
但是上帝仍旧是全世界的上帝 But there is still a universal God
仍旧有全世界的道德准则 with universal moral order
但是在历史的过程中 But over the history of time
消极的方面可能就是 perhaps the negative side of it is
犹太人没有送传教士 Jews does not send up missionaries
去博茨瓦纳开诊所 and open up health clinics in Botswana
帮助当地人 to help the natives
因为这更像是基督教的事情 That's more "Christian thing" To do
而不是犹太教的工作 than a Jewish thing to do
但是当然好的一方面来看 But of course on the upside
我们回顾这段历史 looking retrospectively
基督教徒当然也没有 我们怎么说呢 Christians of course have, what shall we say?
他们对非基督教徒也不怎么友好 not always been nice to non-Christians
大家想想中世纪 You know, think middle ages
想想现代的殖民主义 Think modern colonialism
想想大屠杀 Think Holocaust
随便想想 是吧 Think whatever you'd like, right?
基督教徒并不总是 Christians have not always treated
友好地对待非基督教徒 non-Christians a very nice way
这么看来 Well, that we say
犹太人的历史则要好许多 the Jewish record is much better
可能你马上就会反驳说 Now if you are gonna say right away
科恩教授 省省吧 but Professor Cohen, come on
你行不行啊 please, please, please
不是犹太人好 not the Jews are better
只不过是犹太人 it's that simply Jews
没有这样的机会 haven't had the opportunity
这可能是真的 That may well be true
直到最近 Until very recently, right?
犹太人都没有什么大力量 Jews have been powerless
所以可能我们所追求的宽容 So perhaps the wanted tolerance
拉比犹太教的宽容 of rabbinic Judaism
只不过是对他们处境的美化 is simply a moralization of a situation
他们自己没有什么大的力量 which they couldn't control anyway
我也不能迫害你 Since I can't persecute you
我就说你得到了上帝的青睐 I'll say you are properly found in God's eyes
基督教则没有选择 Christians, well, didn't have that choice
他们有了选择 但是做出了错误决定 I had the choice rather what to do
因此一方面一个宗教是有权力的 So one case we have a power group
但是他们对待外邦人 which has treated the other
有时候很友好 sometimes very nicely
有时候则一点都不友好 sometimes not nicely at all
而另外一种情况 犹太教 In other case, the Jewish side
这群人在历史上一直是 we have a group which has always been
相对没有权力的 relatively speaking, powerless
而且一直有能力 And has been able to make
按照我的话说 我们应该这样表述 I'll say, to, what should we say
有能力为自己的无权力找说辞 to justify it as powerless by saying
非犹太人这样就挺好的 Well, gentiles are fine just as they are anyway
就让他们这样吧 so I can leave them alone
希望他们也不要插手我们的事 Hopefully they will leave me alone
这就是没有权力的少数群体的态度 Which is the attitude of a powerless minority
因此我这里不是说 So I'm not suggesting that
犹太教实际上高出基督教一等 Judaism is de-facto superior in any way
各有千秋吧 There is a trade off here
大家可以看到的是不同的价值观 you'll see, of different values
一个是对他人的关怀 One is concern for the other
这是基督教的态度 On the Christian side
一个则是希望别人不要插手 One is the desire to be left alone
这就是非常典型的少数群体的态度 which is typical attitude of minority groups
而也是犹太教 And the attitude of Jews
传统上的典型态度 classically over time
而在现在 Nowadays of course
大屠杀之后的政治正确的世界中 in post-Holocaust politically correct world
当然也有犹太教的慈善团体 of course there are Jewish charities
将医生送去博茨瓦纳 which do send doctors to Botswana
有许多犹太教的慈善团体 Alright? There are lots of Jewish charities
的确也表现出了对他人的关怀 对吗 which are concerned with the other, right?
也有许多基督教徒 And there are many Christians out there
没有想着去迫害 who don't wanna persecute
非基督教人士 non-Christians anymore
是的 所以你们生活在一个更好的世界中 Yes, so perhaps you'll be living in a better world
在我出生的那个世界里 than the world in which I was born
当时二战结束不久 in the mid of the post-war period
这些变化都是不可能发生的 which these changes were not gonna happen
好的 总结一下 So, conclude
犹太人和基督教徒同样都有 Jews and Christians alike have
这种双重的世界观 对吗 this dualistic view of the world, right?
犹太人 非犹太人 基督徒 非基督教徒 Jews, gentiles, Christians, non-Christians
但是他们对自己的表现形式 but has manifested itself
在社会角度来说非常不同 in social terms in very different ways
在历史上传统来说 Classically speaking over history
好的 我们的课程就到这里 Alright, session has been off
接下来是期末考试 Take the final exam, to Lesaac
大家有问题吗 Do you have any questions on this?
换言之 我知道大家有问题 In other words, I'm sure you do, but
那么科恩教授 你什么意思 So Professor Cohen, what do you say?
你是说这种上帝拣选子民的想法 You are saying this chosen people idea
根本就不合理 is not a rational idea at all
我是这个意思 Yes, it's one thing I'm saying
你的意思是说 You are saying
基督教徒有这种思想 不亚于犹太人 Christians have it as much as Jews have it
没错 我也有这层意思 Yes, that's what I'm saying, right
你认为它们的表现形式 And that how it manifest itself
才是关键所在 is the key question?
并不是这种观念本身 大家喜不喜欢吧 Not the idea itself, whether you like it or not
而是它的表现方式 but rather how it works
是的 我也有这个意思 Yes, that's what I'm saying
和那些复杂的事物不同 Unlike all these complicated things
这不能简单地说 It's not a simple thing to say
这是不好的 坏的 好的 坏的 It's not nice, it's not nice, good, it's bad
不管怎么评价 it's, whatever it is
但是大家回顾历史 But looking over time
就会发现这种观点的体现 This idea has manifested itself
产生了很多影响 where has had different effects
也在此过程中产生了基督教 producing Christians over time
好的 我们差不多讲完了 Okay, we are more or less at the end
如果我能多出一节课 If I had time for one more session
如果我能多出来一节课 Well, if I have time for one more session
我会给大家讲耶稣的凯旋 I do some of the triumphs of Jesus, right
多出两个课时的话 two more sessions
我就会在这里给大家加一堂课 Then I would do here a session on
复习一下 the reflections
说说这堂课的意义所在 and what does it all mean
他们在希伯来学校是怎么教大家的 and what do they teach you in Hebrew school
主日学校是怎么教的 or Sunday school and you know
我们怎么能把这些知识 How does one take all these material
都内化 and internalize it
如果有人想要内化这些知识 if one is going to do that
我希望大家会这样做 Which I hope you will
因为对于这些之后 大家是可以做到的 Cos this is the kind of stuff you can do that
如果是有机化学 那大家就没法自学了 You can't do that with organic chemistry
但是这个没问题的 But this you can do
但是无论如何吧 Yeah, but alas we are
我们也没多出来一节课 don't have one more session
我们现在就剩下三分钟了 Here we have around three minutes
无论如何 简单总结下 But in any case, brief
我希望这节课不仅仅是给大家知识 I hope that the class was not just informative
因为我是教授给大家知识嘛 in the sense of teaching you stuff
我们总是说我们教了很多知识 We always say we taught a lot of stuff
我也希望这门课能够帮助大家思考 But also a course that will help you think
特别如果你是犹太人或者基督教徒 especially if you are a Jews or a Christian
这门课应该会给大家很多思考的内容 this would be a lot of material to think about
给了大家另一面的故事 Given you the other side of the story
你们在主日学校中没有学到的 which you didn't hear in Sunday school
在希伯来学校中没有学到的 we didn't hear about in Hebrew school
这一点我很肯定 that I'm sure
如果你不是犹太人或者基督教徒呢 And if you are not a Jew or Christian
我希望你们可以理解 I hope you'll understand
至少有一些内容关于 at least something about
为什么犹太教徒和基督教徒会有矛盾 what makes Jews or Christians tick
明白为什么这么多的人们 or understand why so many people
在历史的长河中 还有很多很聪明的人 over time, so many very smart people
都这么严肃地对待这门宗教 have taken the stuff so seriously
我希望大家明白关于这些内容的 I want you to understands what the issues are
相关问题 here with this material
为什么这是人们可以 That this is something which
照我的话说 去相信的宗教 I'm saying one can believe in it
但是我觉得更好的表述应该是 But rather a language I'll say that is
能够去严肃对待 one can take it seriously
因为这些都是非常严肃的问题 Because these are serious questions
严肃的看法 serious concerns
我们自从一开始上课 we had addressed from the
到现在都在解决这些问题 beginning of the course until now
如果大家在其中 So if I you have gotten
得到了更好的见解 some better appreciation of that
那么我要说 Then I will say
Dayenu 我就非常满足了 Dayenu, right I'm content with my lot
这对我而言已经足够了 It is sufficient, it is sufficient for me
如果你能得到更多 And if you got more out of it than that
那么当然 我肯定更高兴了 Then of course, I am here more delighted
大家记得要给我课程反馈 So please give me your feedback
在Q-Guide上提交 on the Q-Guide
好了 我们就告一段落了 And, I think that's it
谢谢大家 Thank you [Rhine & trismile Production]