一个上帝 两个位格 Where we were
讲到哪里了 So we were discussing
我们讲过了 intermediaries
媒介 divine intermediaries between
在上帝和人类之间的 God and the world and so on
神圣的媒介 And today we'll discuss
今天我们会讲 Biblical material on Monday
周一讲了圣经的内容 and some anticipations of materials today
今天讲一些大家希望听到的内容 We'll be discussing mostly Christian sources
我们主要会讲基督教方面的东西 Christian texts loudly proclaim that
基督徒响亮地声称 we Christians worship the One True God
我们基督徒只崇拜唯一真神 no less than Jewish authors
同样 犹太教的作者们 who loudly proclaim that
响亮地声称 we Jews worship the One True God
我们犹太人崇拜唯一真神 And indeed the One True God
而这个基督徒的 of the Christians is the same as
唯一真神和犹太人的 the One True God of the Jews
唯一真神是相同的 Namely, is the God of the Hebrew Bible
也就是希伯来圣经里面的上帝 Is the God of the Scripture
圣经里面的上帝 Is the God of Genesis
创世记里面的上帝 However, as we shall see
然而我们会看到 What does this mean
这是什么意思 One True God means something
对于基督徒来说 very different for Christians than
唯一真神的含义 it will come to mean for Jews
和犹太人的非常不同 As we see that
最显而易见的观点 most clearly in our friend Justin
来自我们的朋友犹斯丁 The writings of Justin as we will read for today
我们今天读的犹斯丁的文章 As I wrote in the handout
在上周给大家的 in the note to you last week
讲义的注释里面有 I think represent Justin at his best
我认为代表着犹斯丁的 at his intellectual best
最高知识水平 Where he's clearly grappling
他很明显抓住了一些 with some very difficult questions
非常难解决的问题 And is trying to understand
然后试图解释清楚 how to take a theology that works
怎么样把这些神学的东西 that make sense to
对公元二世纪 a philosophically educated person
那些受过哲学教育的人 of the second century of our era
能够讲出道理来 Take that and turn that into Christianity
把这些转换成基督教义 and turn that into Scripture
转换成圣经的含义 or apply to the Scripture
或者符合圣经的含义 So Justin is following Philo in many ways
在很多方面犹斯丁都是和斐洛一脉相承的 Right, Philo did that key move
斐洛做出了关键的一步 when Philo took philosophical conception of God
斐洛把哲学上上帝的概念 and married it to Scripture
和圣经结合了起来 Alright? The conception of God
上帝的概念 That God is transcended
上帝是超然的 God does not have body
上帝没有身体 God is immaterial
上帝是非物质的 God is all those polysyllabic adjectives
上帝是所有这些我们用来 that we use to describe God
描述上帝的多音节形容词 You take that notion of God
把上帝的这种概念 You adjust and pose it to the Scripture
调整然后和圣经相结合 And you'll realize something is wrong
就会发现有些不对劲 Something does not work
有些地方说不通 This does not fit that
有些地方不相符 Philo is working very hard to make it to fit, right
斐洛付出了艰苦卓绝的工作让一切相符 The one argument Philo came up with
斐洛给出的论据之一 was the Logos
就是道 theology of the Logos
道的神学理论 Which is Philo's way of keeping God
斐洛保持着上帝 philosophically intack
在哲学保持完整 philosophically pure over here
哲学纯粹上的地位 And yet have found a way for that God
同时为上帝找到了一种方法 to interact with the world of matter
让他和物质的世界联系起来 To interact with the sublunary world
和人类的世界 我们生活的世界 the world in which we live
我们栖息的世界 the world in which we inhabit
联系了起来 And the Logos, divine speech
而道 神的说话的道 divine thought, perhaps, or reason
神的想法 也许是 道理 or I think speech is probably
我认为说话的道是对道 the best translation of Logos
最合适 最好的翻译 That is how God created the world
上帝怎么创造这个世界 That how God created Adam
上帝怎么创造亚当 Namely humans, or humanity
也就是人 或者人类 And that in fact is how God interacts
这就是实际上上帝如何 with the world through the Logos
通过道和这个世界联系 that flits back and forth
如何在上帝和人类的 between the world and God
世界中穿行 What Justin is doing
而犹斯丁做的 or what early Christians like him are doing
或者说像他一样的早期基督徒所做的 is to take Logos theology
是把道的神学理论 and to identify it with Christ
定义到了基督身上 And all those other things
我们在周一讲的 we spoke about on Monday
所有那些东西 For Justin, all of them are Christ
对犹斯丁来说 都是基督 Namely, angels, they get to the big angels
也就是说 天使 那些大天使 who intermediate between God and heaven
上帝和天堂之间的媒介 They are somehow Christ
他们某种程度上是基督 Or they are ways of Scripture to refer to Christ
或者是圣经提到基督的方式 When you have the Name of God
而说到上帝之名 the Glory of God, and the Temple
上帝的荣耀 圣庙 That's Christ
都是基督 When you have a Logos
说到道 which is not in Scripture
在圣经中没有 That's Philo introducing that into Scripture
是斐洛把道和圣经结合起来的 Right? The idea that there is divine speech
认为神的说话的道 or reason which intermediate
或者道理是上帝和这个世界 between God and the world
联系的媒介 That, Justin says, also is Christ
犹斯丁说 这也是基督 All those things are different ways
这都是代表基督的 of referring to Christ
不同形式 Namely, that aspect of God
也就是说 上帝的这一面 what Christians will later say
基督徒后来会说 that person of God
上帝这个人 which intermediates between the remote God
天上的上帝和 and the world in which we inhabit
我们栖息的世界的媒介 That power, that thing, that person
这种力量 这种存在 这个人 that extension, that manifestation of God
这种扩展 上帝的这种显现方式 That is Christ
都是基督 Okay, that's lecture today, I'm done
好了 这就是今天要讲的 讲完了 You know, that's the big point
这就是重中之重 That's the big point
重中之重 Right? And as we shall see
我们看到 Jews who are preparing to believe
犹太人打算相信 in the Logos and angels and the Name of God
道和天使 和上帝之名 and the Glory of God
和上帝的荣耀 will not prepare to say
而不准备说 that's Christ to its God
基督就是上帝 They said, euh-euh
他们说 恩恩 We are getting off the train here
这点就不能认同了 Okay, that's my conclusion
这就是我的结论 Alright, let's go in and look at some of these
接下来我们来看看一些 which is fascinating material
非常有趣的材料 Questions? You guys understand
有问题吗 你们明白 where we are going with this?
我们要讲的是什么吧 What the problems we are trying to solve?
我们要解决问题是什么吧 and what the issues are?
还有问题在哪里 Hmmm, you look from Facebook for a second
你们从Facebook上查查 Maybe we'll understand what is going on
也许就会明白讲的是什么了 Alright, alright, alright
好吧 好吧 好吧 Okay, so let's get to work then
我们开始讲 and review some of these
来看看这些 some of these very difficult material
非常难理解的材料 Okay, so we already did
我们在讲义里面 the Name and Glory of God on the handout
已经讲过了上帝之名 上帝的荣耀 That already, did that already
已经讲过了 The Name of God, blablabla
上帝之名 等等等 Justin 126.1, a very interesting passage
犹斯丁126.1 非常有趣的段落 which I did not transfer it by the by lecture notes
我没有放到大家的讲义上面 since you should go look at it
你们应该读一读 It gives you a catalogue of
这章给出了一个目录 all these different titles, terms in Scripture
圣经的不同标题 不同词条 that says, each of them means Christ
然后说 这些都是在说基督 Doesn't say Christ of course
当然没有直接说基督 But that's what it means
但是就是这个意思 That refers to some aspect of God
指的是上帝的某一方面 with the capital, capitalized
大写字母开头的名字 You'll get a long list of these
就会得到列表里面的这些 So it's actually quite fascinating to see
所以这是非常有趣的 Okay, now we can talk about wisdom
好了 现在我们讲讲智慧 Which is now
现在 Now we get something also important
现在讲一些也很重要的东西 which we have not done yet
我们还没有讲完的 This also appears in Middleton's article
这些观点也出现了米德尔顿的文章里面 which I hope you will work on
我希望大家去好好读一读 Among these intermediary powers
这些媒介的力量里面 or names, or titles from Scripture
圣经里面的名字或者头衔 that Jews and Christians alike saw
犹太人和基督徒一样都会当成是 as a key philosophical move by Scripture
圣经中一个主要的关于 to intermediate between God and the world
上帝和人间的媒介的哲学上的变化 is this famous passage in Proverbs 8
其中有一个著名段落 来自箴言第8章 about wisdom
关于智慧 Famous, I know
很有名 我知道 May not be famous to you
可能对你来说不太有名 But there are people who otherwise
但是那些对于 don't know anything about the Book of Proverbs
箴言一无所知的人 know this passage in the Book of Proverbs
都知道来自箴言中的这个段落 and this wisdom
和这个关于智慧的段落 And those opening chapters
在箴言的 in the Book of Proverbs
开篇的一段 What is the Book of Proverbs?
什么是箴言 Just talk away in the last section
在讲希伯来圣经 of the Hebrew Scriptures
最后的时候提到过 That's the Book of Proverbs
就是关于箴言的一部 Okay, that's what we need to know already
我们现在只需要知道这些 Now take my course Intro to Hebrew Bible
上一上我讲希伯来圣经的课 And we'll talk about the Book of Proverbs
就会讲到箴言 but not for very much
但是不会讲太多 I found it extremely boring
我觉得箴言非常的无聊 and really unrewarding
也没什么价值 But it's just my opinion, okay
不过这只是我的个人观点 But the opening chapters are quite stunning
箴言的开篇描写非常精彩 The Book of Proverbs
箴言的开篇 Where Proverbs depicts and
箴言描述了 personified as a woman
拟人化了一个女人 Both Folly, Dame Folly, Lady Folly
叫做愚蠢 名字叫愚蠢 愚蠢女士 who will lead an unsuspecting youth to sin
她会带给毫无戒心的年轻人罪恶 and therefore into disaster, right?
进一步导致灾难发生 And on another hand
另外一方面 we seem to have contrasted with her Folly
和愚蠢相对的 personified as woman, with Wisdom
是拟人化了另外一个女人 智慧 which in Hebrew is a feminine noun, Chokhmah
在希伯来语里面是一个阴性名词 Chokhmah Right? In Jews is herself
犹太圣经里面是她自己 as this is the path of God
这是通往上帝的道路 this is the path of truth
通往真理的道路 this is the path you should follow
你应该遵循的道路 So then we comes to Proverbs 8
在箴言第8章 we are having more stunning move
有了一些更加令人吃惊的变化 where the Wisdom herself
智慧她自己 sings her own praises in the first person single
以第一人称单数颂念赞美诗 right, wisdom is a hymn to Wisdom
智慧是智慧的赞美诗 Capital W, right
特指的智慧 personified as a woman, right?
拟人化为一个女人 对吧 In which she, Lady Wisdom
而她 智慧女士 sings of her own attributes
为她自己颂唱赞歌 And the reasons why you, young man
这些就是为什么你们年轻人 should pursue her
应该追求她 and stay away from that hussy, that Folly
而且要远离那个轻佻的女子 愚蠢女士 Right? That trouble
带来麻烦的女士 I know she's good looking
我知道她很漂亮 but don't go near her, okay?
但是不要接近她 好吧 That's the rhetorical structure of these chapters
这就是这些章节的主要内容 So here we have Lady Wisdom
在箴言的第8章 singing about herself
智慧女士为自己颂赞歌 singing her own praises in Proverbs 8
为自己颂念赞美诗 And these verses are the ones
这些章节也 that caught the attentions of
同时吸引了 Jews and Christians alike
犹太人和基督徒的注意 The Lord brought me forth
在耶和华造化的起头 as the first of his works
在太初创造万物之先 就有了我 So the Lord brought me forth or acquired me
(希伯来语) the verb is a tricky one in Hebrew
耶和华就有了我 或者要求我 as the first of his works
这个动词在希伯来语里面有歧义 before his deeds of old
在他造化的起头 I was appointed from eternity
在太初创造万物之先 from the beginning, before the world began
从亘古 从太初 When there were no oceans
未有世界以前 我已被立 I was given birth
没有深渊 When there were no springs
没有大水 abounding with water
的泉源 Before the mountains were settled in place
我已生出 before the hills, I was given birth
大山未曾奠定 Da, da, da, da
小山未有之先 我已生出 Then I was the craftsman at his side
哒哒哒哒 a very difficult word
那时 我在他那里为工师 craftsman is one possible translation
(希伯来语) But we are not quite sure
一个很难的词 what the translation is
工师是一种可能的翻译 I was filled with delight day after day
但是我们不太确定 rejoicing always in his presence
应该翻译成什么 So Lady Wisdom is selling herself
(希伯来语) is playing forth her credentials is to say
日日为他所喜爱 what does she say?
常常在他面前踊跃 God acquired me, or created me
智慧女士王婆卖瓜 at the beginning of time
展示自己的优点 这是为了 Even before creation, I was there
她说的是什么 And if we accept the translation craftsman
上帝得到我 或者创造了我 This means, that God created the world
是在太初 Now chew this expression very carefully
甚至在创世记之前 就有了我 Guided by wisdom, aided by wisdom
如果我们同意翻译成工师 through wisdom
这意味着 上帝创造这个世界 That's what these mysterious verses
好好品味下这一句 seem to mean
由智慧引导 由智慧帮助 And that's what Jews and Christians alike thought
通过智慧 the passage meant
这就是这个神秘的小节 There's something called wisdom
好像要表达的 not mentioned anywhere in Genesis 1
同样是犹太人和基督徒认为的 But if you read Proverbs 8
这一段的含义 and you combine it with Genesis 1
有个叫做智慧的东西 then you'll see that God created the world
在创世记第1章里面完全没有提到 through or with Wisdom, capital W
但是如果读到箴言第8章 What is this mysterious Wisdom
和创世记第1章结合起来看 through which or by which or with which
你就发现上帝通过智慧 God created the world?
创造的世界 特指的智慧 Well Jews, and this is already Philo already
这个神秘的智慧是什么 is combining these things
通过什么 或者凭借什么 和什么 He already noticed Proverbs
上帝创造的世界 He does not know another verse
犹太人 斐洛也已经 in the Book of Proverbs
把这些东西合并起来 but he knows these verses in Proverbs
他已经注意到了箴言 And later rabbinic Jews will
他没看过箴言的 more explicitly say
其他章节 It's very obvious what Wisdom is
但是他看过箴言的这一节 Wisdom is the Torah
后来的拉比犹太人 By which they might mean the book
会更加清楚地说 The Torah book
智慧是什么很明显 The Torah book is pre-existent, is eternal
智慧就是Torah was there with God at the beginning of time
他们可能说的是这本书 Or maybe they mean by the Torah
Torah这本书 something more amorphous
Torah是永远先在的 是永恒的 Judaism
在太初就和上帝在一起的 Or Jewish text, ideas, philosophies
或者他们所说的Torah是指 or something vaguer
更加虚无缥缈的事物 I'm not entire 100% sure
犹太主义 In any case, God created the world
或者是犹太文献 想法 哲学 with the Torah, through the Torah
或者更加隐晦的东西 Or the way one Midrash puts it
我不能100%肯定 The Torah was the blueprint for the Creation
无论如何 上帝都是 God like an architect consult a blueprint
用Torah 通过Torah创造的世界 God consults the Torah
或者像是米德拉什说的 and use that as the guide
Torah是创世记的蓝图 for the creation of the world
上帝就像是建筑师 参考蓝图 Don't ask me exactly what this means
上帝参考了Torah But that's what the Midrash says
用此作为向导 That's the Jewish side
创造了世界 Wisdom equals Torah
不要问我这是什么意思 Pre-existent, eternal
不过这就是米德拉什说的 the vehicle by which God created the world
这就是犹太教的方面 And if you are a Christian
智慧等同于Torah then what is Wisdom?
永远先在的 永恒的 Christ
上帝通过它创造了世界 Exactly the same thing
如果你是基督徒 God creates the world
那么智慧是什么 through Christ, with Christ
基督 in company with Christ
是一样的道理 cos Christ is eternal
上帝创造世界是 Christ is pre-existent
通过基督 借由基督 You remember back weeks ago
和基督一起 when I spoke about
因为基督是永恒的 I gave you one session
基督是永远先在的 summaries of Judaism and Christianity?
还记得几周前 And I said then Judaism is
当我说到 God, Torah, Israel
我用了一小节 And Christianity is
来总结犹太主义和基督教 God, Christ, church
我说犹太主义是 And I said Christ, as I said at the time
上帝 Torah 以色列 Christ and Torah correspond to each other
基督教是 That's what I meant
上帝 基督 教会 Cos Christ and Torah correspond to each other
我说到基督 是同样的顺序 Right, functionally, or structurally in thought
基督和Torah是彼此呼应的 Each of these are eternal
这就是我的意思 Each of these are the secret to creation
因为基督和Torah彼此呼应 And this appears spectacularly
功能上 或者思想结构上的呼应 in the opening words of the Gospel of John
二者都是永恒的 And for people, who otherwise
二者都是创造世界的秘密 don't know anything about the Gospel of John
特别引人注目的 They probably know these
是约翰福音的开场白中的一段 opening words to the Gospel of John
有些人可能 the stunning words of the Gospel of John
对约翰福音没什么了解 In the beginning
但是他们可能知道 where we heard that phrase before?
约翰福音的开场白 In the beginning
约翰福音极好的开场白 Genesis
太初 Obviously, John is alluding to Genesis 1
我们在哪里听过这个短语 Right, just to make this clear
太初 John is obviously tipping you off, dear reader
创世记 by the way I'm doing a riff here on Genesis 1
很明显 约翰福音是在暗指创世记第1章 In the beginning was the Logos
澄清一下 And Logos was with God
约翰福音很明显是在暗示 读者们 and Logos was God
我是在重复创世记第1章 It, the Logos was with God in the beginning
太初有道 Through it all things were made
道与神同在 Without is, nothing was made
道就是神 that has been made
这道太初与神同在 Middleton is trying to unpack
万物是藉着他造的 all the various associations
凡被造的 没有一样 that are lurking behind this
不是籍着他造的 And obviously on the surface
米德尔顿尝试把 is this idea of Logos equals Wisdom
所有背后不同的联系 from Proverbs 8
都解读出来 Behind this also is Middleton discusses
很明显表面上看 is also the notions of the Name of God
是箴言第8章中的道等同智慧 the Glory of God
的这一概念 all these things we've been talking about
在这背后同样米德尔顿 That's all Middleton says
还讨论了上帝之名的概念 it is all lurking behind it midrashically
上帝的荣耀的概念 And John is writing a riff or a Midrash
我说到的所有这些 a scriptural rewriting, rereading of
米德尔顿说 Genesis 1 in the light of Proverbs 8
这些都米德拉什式的隐藏在背后 and in the light of Christian notions about Christ
约翰福音是对米德拉什的重复 Which in turn are informed by
是对圣经的重写 基于箴言第8章 philosophical ideas about God in the world
而对创世记第1章的重新解读 which comes out of Philo
以及基于基督徒对于基督的概念 All of that is fitting into these
也是受到这个世界的上帝 extraordinary lines in the opening lines
哲学方面想法的启发 in the Gospel of John
这是斐洛的观点 So class, let's participate the second
所有这些都符合 Could a Jew agree with the opening words
约翰福音这段不同凡响的 of the Gospel of John?
开场白 I, Shaye Cohen, pious Jew
所以同学们 让我们一起回答这个问题 Can I say, in the beginning was the Logos
犹太人会同意约翰福音的 Logos was with God
开场白吗 Logos was God
我 Shaye Cohen 虔诚的犹太人 It was with God in the beginning
我会说 太初有道 Through it all things were made
道与神同在 Without it nothing was made that
道就是神 has been made
这道太初与神同在 Could Jews describe all those things?
万物是藉着他造的 Yes
凡被造的 没有一样 Absolutely
不是籍着他造的 Philo good
犹太人会这样说吗 Philo did
是的 With the Jew gets off the train
当然啦 and a couple of verses down
斐洛就是这样 where John goes on to say
斐洛这样说了 And the Logos was made flesh
但是接下来的几节 Sorry, I'm out of here
犹太人就不再认同了 What do you mean Logos was made flesh?
因为约翰福音说 You mean, Christ, God was somehow
道成了肉身 poured into a human
抱歉 我不能认同 Euh, euh, euh
你说道成了肉身是什么意思 We Jews don't go for that
你是说 基督 上帝 But till that point
变成了人类吗 The fundamental Logos theology
恩 恩 恩 is fundamentally a Jewish theology
我们犹太人不相信这个 of the kind we see
但是在此之前 generation until earlier in Philo
道的神学理论基本上 Excuse me
就是犹太人的神学理论 Okay, Justin of course is a subscriber
一直到 to this Logos theology
斐洛之前的几代人 David, you have comment?
抱歉 When do we see this idea that Torah is
犹斯丁当然是道的神学理论 come eternal with God
的拥护者 or something like this?
David 你有什么想说的吗 It's explicit, unambiguously in Genesis rabbi
从什么时候我们开始认为Torah Philo is sort of playing with it
是和上帝一样永恒的 You could see he's playing with it
或者类似的观点 But it's black and white in
这很清楚明白地写在拉比创世记中 rabbinic Midrash of Genesis rabbi
斐洛是在玩弄这段文字 which we conventionally dates to
他是在玩弄这段文字 the 4th or 5th century CE
但是这是黑字白字 Is anyone bothered by the fact
写在米德拉什的拉比创世记中的 that Torah we read is the work of humans?
一般认为是在公元四世纪 No, that's just being simple minded
或者五世纪写就的 That's what I said
我们所读的Torah是由人类撰写的 By the Torah I don't mean
有没有人会觉得别扭呢 just mean the book
没有 这样就想得太简单了 But we mean something bigger than it
我是说 It's a hypostatization of some idea
我说的Torah that God opens a Torah and reads it
不止是一本书 and use it as a blueprint to create the world
而是比书的概念更大 What book is he opening?
是一些想法的实体化 The book that we have, the story of Genesis?
上帝打开Torah然后开始读 I mean, that's the book?
用它作为创造世界的蓝图 Yup, exactly
他打开的是什么书 How can we be sure what it means?
是我们知道的 创世记的故事吗 But I know it's interesting
我是说 就是这本书 Yes, Annie
就是这样 Question about the Proverbs, quickly
我们怎么能知道到底是什么意思 Sure
但是我知道这很有趣 Is Logos actually used for Wisdom or what?
Annie请说 No, Proverbs only talks about wisdom, period
有个关于箴言的小问题 Proverbs does not use the word Logos
好的 or any Hebrew equivalent
道被用来指代智慧或者什么了吗 Okay
没有 箴言只提到了智慧 仅此而已 Right, identifying Wisdom with Logos
箴言没用到道这个词 is a move by an interpreter
或者其他任何希伯来词 by a scriptural reader
好的 Like Philo, like the author of John
把智慧等同于道 Like Justin, all of whom are doing that
是解读者们做的 And that is the word that's used
是圣经读者做的 way until we can get to John
比如斐洛 或者约翰福音的作者 In the sense that
比如犹斯丁 他们都在做这种事情 I'm the way, and the truth, in a way?
因此道是我们在约翰福音 Yes
出现之前所有的说法 Is that what truth is that different from
这样说来 things that are used
某种角度说 我是道理 我是真理 Yes, that's another term
是的 Okay
这里的真理和我们说的 Yes, Brandon, right?
其他的东西 Right
是的 这是另外一个词了 Right, yes
好的 So for Christians, Wisdom equals Logos
Brandon 请说 对吧 equals Christ
是的 For Jews, is it?
是的 Wisdom, equals Torah, stop there
对基督徒来说 智慧等同于道 So there is no Logos
等同于基督 Well, Logos theology, yes good
对犹太人呢 Logos theology dies out in Judaism, right
智慧等同于Torah 到此为止 Greek speaking Jews hold Logos theology
没有道 The rabbinic Jews who spoke Hebrew
道的神学理论 非常好 never read Philo, Logos theology
道的理论在犹太主义里面没有生存空间 persist in some corners in rabbinic Judaism
说希腊语的犹太人相信道的理论 Notably in the Targum
那些说希伯来语的拉比犹太人 Which is discussed by Middleton, right
从来不读斐洛和道的理论 But in mainland rabbinic theology
坚持着自己的拉比犹太主义 Logos theology dies out
特别是塔古姆 Probably because the Christians' run with it
这在米德尔顿的作品里有论述 So therefore we Jews are staying away
但是在本土的拉比神学里面 Okay, I get it
道的理论被剔除了 Right, that's the simplest explanation, right
可能是因为这是基督徒的观点 So once a Jewish notion with him, the Philo
所以我们犹太人就不认同了 But when Christians get hold of it
好的 明白了 and developed it
这是最简单的解释 对吧 Then rabbinic Jews walked away from it
一开始是犹太人有的这个概念 斐洛 Okay, thank you
但是当基督徒开始持有这种观点 Okay?
并且进一步发展 Good
拉比犹太人就放弃了这个观点 So Justin also works on this
懂了 谢谢 Logos theology stuff
没问题了吗 Here is a wonderful line here
很好 It's on your handout, on paragraph 61
犹斯丁也研究过 I shall now show from the Scriptures
道的神学理论 that God has begotten of himself
这里有一段很优美的段落 Remember? There is an unbegotten God
在大家的讲义上 第61段 Then there is the begotten God
我可以引用圣经来证明 So God has begotten of himself
上帝自己是受生的 a certain rational power
还记得吗 有自生的上帝 the Greek there is
还有受生的上帝 Right, it's the educative spot out of Logos
上帝为自己受生了 The word translated rational
一种特定的合理的力量 means logical, you know
希腊语是 if I can translated it as super literally
(希腊语) it doesn't mean logical at all
这是从教育角度出发对道的解读 in our sense of the word
这个词被翻译成合理的 has to do with logic
符合逻辑的 God produced out of himself
如果只是简单从字面翻译 the power of the Logos
但是我们知道 at the beginning before all creatures
这个词和逻辑 Justin is combining Logos theology
根本没有任何关系 with Proverbs 8, with Wisdom, with Genesis 1
上帝为自己创造出了 It's all there
道的力量 What's not there in Justin is John 1
在太初万物还没诞生的时候 I am not sure Justin knew the Gospel of John
犹斯丁把道的理论和 I don't know Justin well enough to know
箴言第8章 智慧 创世记第1章结合了起来 answer that statement
全包括在内 Does Justin knows the Gospel of John
不包括在内的是约翰福音第1章 But he could have quoted John 1
我不确定犹斯丁知不知道约翰福音 He didn't, whatever, okay
我不知道犹斯丁有没有 A very typical line
对此进行回应 You have other, move on
犹斯丁知道约翰福音吗 It's all the same things today, but
他本可以引用约翰福音第1章 Other observations?
但是他没有 总之 好吧 Questions?
非常典型的段落 Okay, so since Justin has done this move
你们还有 继续 Logos equal Christ
都是今天要讲的 不过 Then Justin has the next logical step
还有其他总结吗 which is, Christ is that aspect of God
问题 by which God interacts with the world
因为犹斯丁认为 Right, God interacts with the world through Christ
道等同于基督 Okay, here I quote a few passages from Colossians
然后犹斯丁就有了下一个符合逻辑的结论 Which has the similar idea
也就是 基督是上帝的一方面 But I'm gonna move along as now
上帝和世界相互左右的一方面 Don't have time
上帝通过基督和世界相互作用 But look at passages in Colossians
我在这里引用了歌罗西书的几个段落 which is called Deutero Pauline in the biz
也有同样的想法 I don't know why I put it down on the handout
但是我现在不打算讲了 I should left it out
没有时间 Don't look at the passage in Colossians
但是看看歌罗西书的段落 It will confuse you
被称作 Deutero Pauline书信集 Okay, go on ahead
我不知道为什么要把这些放到讲义上 He who was said to
不应该放 have appeared to Abraham
不要看歌罗西书的段落 Jacob and Moses, and is called God
会让你们迷惑 is distinct from God the creator
好了 继续 distinct in number, but not in mind
那个据说对 Oops, what a line
亚伯拉罕 雅各和摩西 So here we see Justin grappling with
所显现的 被称作上帝的 a whole series of technical problems
不同于创造世界的上帝 When Scripture says
不同在于数字 而不是思想 that God appeared to Abraham
哦 这一句啊 For example, Genesis 18:1
我们看到犹斯丁 When God, we saw that verse on Monday
在和一系列的技术性问题搏斗 God appeared to Abraham
当圣经说 So Lord appeared to Abraham
上帝向亚伯拉罕显现出来 Which Lord is that?
比如说 创世记第18章第1节 Is that the remote, unbegotten
上帝 我们在周一读过这节 immovable, immutable God?
耶和华向亚伯拉罕显现出来 Is that the God who appeared to Abraham?
(希伯来语) I want to hear a resounding answer
耶和华向亚伯拉罕显现出来 Is that the God appeared to him?
是哪个耶和华 Could that God have appeared to Abraham?
是那个高高在上 自生的 Of course not
不可改变 不能改变的上帝吗 So as Scripture says
是那个上帝向亚伯拉罕显现出来吗 God appeared to Abraham
我想听到一个响亮的回答 it's talking about the begotten God
是那个上帝显现出来吗 it's talking about the God who is the
可能是那个上帝向亚伯拉罕显现出来吗 that God, that Logos, that Christ
当然不是 who does interact with you
因为如圣经所说 who does enter the realm of human sphere
上帝向亚伯拉罕显现出来 That's not just that passage in Genesis 18:1
是说的受生的上帝 It's every single time in Scripture
是说的那个上帝 That it says, God said, God appeared
那个和道 和基督 God spoke, God did
和你们都有交流的上帝 something to a human realm
是那个会来到人世间的上帝 Every single time Justin says
这不止是在创世记第18章第1节出现 And is never a reference to the unbegotten God
而是每一次在圣经中出现的时候 The ineffable, immovable, immutable God
都是在说 上帝说 上帝显现 It never refers to that God
上帝说 上帝做 Because if the God is interacting with
都是对人类世界的 humans and human sphere
犹斯丁说每一次都是这样 By definition, it has to be the Logos God
而从来不是指代自生的上帝 It has to be Christ
那个难以形容 不可改变 不能改变的上帝 I find this absolutely amazing
从来指的不是这个上帝 But that's just my opinion, right
因为如果上帝和人类的世界 That's Justin
产生了交流 So it's not the first God
根据定义 就必须是道的上帝 To use the language he himself uses
必须是基督 Is the second God
我觉得这真是太棒了 Which of course is the same as the first God
但是这只是我的观点 对吧 you understand this mysterious relationship
这就是犹斯丁的观点 between one aspect of God and another
这不是第一个上帝 which Christians will later call
用犹斯丁用的说法就是 persons of the God, or the Trinity
是第二位上帝 We jump ahead a second
但是和第一位上帝的一样的 We don't have a Trinity in Justin
你明白这种上帝的一方面和另一方面 We only have two
之间的神秘的关系吧 We never heard of a Trinity
后来基督徒把这个叫做 In the middle of the 2nd century, no Trinity yet
上帝的位格 或者说三位一体 We just have two
提前说一下 Okay, I'll come back to that in the end
犹斯丁时代没有三位一体 Okay, so Justin makes his claim
只有两个位格 over and over again
这个时候还没听说过三位一体 when Scripture says
在公元二世纪 还没有三位一体 God said, God spoke, God appear, God did
只有两个位格 And every single time
这个我会在最后讲 it's referring to not the unbegotten God
所以犹斯丁一遍又一遍 but to the begotten God
声明自己的观点 Namely, Christ, Logos, etc.
当圣经说 Now I'll bring us back to Genesis 18
上帝说过 上帝说 上帝显现 上帝做 It's absolutely stunning to realize
每一次 how many different ways there are
指的都不是自生的上帝 to construe the relationship
而且受生的上帝 of these three men with God
也就是 基督 道 等等 in the Christian and Jewish exegesis
现在回到创世记第18章 Christian and Jewish interpretation
这真是令人震惊的发现 So you remember from Genesis 18:1
在基督徒和犹太人的释经中 God, the Lord appeared to Abraham
基督徒和犹太人的解读中 Genesis 18:2
有多少不同的方法 Abraham lifted his eyes and saw three men
去分析这三个人 He saw three men
和上帝之间的关系 Now I ask you
还记得创世记第18章第1节吧 What's the connection between
上帝 耶和华向亚伯拉罕显现出来 the Lord appearing in 18:1
创世记第18章第2节 and the three men in 18:2
亚伯拉罕举目观看 见到有三个人 I count at least four different ways
(希伯来语) by which Jews and Christians construe
他看见三个人 the relationship of these two verses
现在我问你 So the first one
耶和华在第18章第一节出现 is modern Bible scholarship
和第18章第2节的三个人 represented by the JSB
之间是什么关系 Namely, the story is about the Lord
我统计了至少四种不同的方法 who appears in human form to Abraham
犹太人和基督徒来解释 accompanied by two angels
这两节中的关系 If you say, this is philosophically speaking
第一种 very juvenile, it's like Zeus
是当代圣经学者的解释 and apparently, he's walking down the street
在犹太学习圣经里面有 and bumping into humans
也就是 这个关于耶和华的故事 as in Greek mythology
以人类的形象向亚伯拉罕显现 Doesn't sound like a Bible to me
由两位天使陪同 Well, I'm sorry
如果你说 这是从哲学角度说的 The Book of Genesis is not
非常幼稚 就跟宙斯的故事一样 philosophically respectable sometimes
很明显 他走在大街上 What can I do?
偶然遇到了人类 Philosophically naive
希腊神话就是这样的 It's narrative theology
我觉得根本不像圣经的风格 It's not high-falutin theology
很抱歉 God walking down the street
创世记有些时候 and Abraham sees him
没法用哲学来解释 What can I do? That's what it says
我能怎么办 Accompanied by two angels
哲学上非常幼稚 That's what modern Bible scholarship says
这是叙事神学 Interesting enough, Justin agrees
这不是夸大的神学 Justin agrees that it is
上帝在大街上行走 God accompanied by two angels
亚伯拉罕看到了他 Except that, which God is it?
我能怎么办 圣经就是这样说的 Justin here introduces the distinction
上帝由两个天使陪同 that the modern Bible scholarship
这就是当代圣经学者的观点 doesn't find anywhere in Scripture
最有趣的是 犹斯丁认同了 which is the distinction between
犹斯丁认同了 the remote, immovable, immutable God
上帝由两个天使陪同 who's not going to see Abraham
除了一点 是哪个上帝 and Christ, who is, the second God
犹斯丁在这里提出了有个区别 So for Justin it's the second God
是那些当代圣经学者 and two angels
没有在圣经中发现的 Medieval Christian interpretation
就是那个高高在上的 No, no, no, Justin, you got it wrong
不能动的 不可动的上帝 It in fact is the ultimate immovable God
那个不会去见亚伯拉罕的上帝 and we have here a clear unambiguous
和基督 第二个上帝之间的区别 Scriptural reference to the Trinity
所以犹斯丁认为是第二个上帝 Justin will say it's impossible
和两位天使 Cos the immutable God
中世纪基督徒的解读 does not appear to Abraham
不不不 犹斯丁 你错了 But later Christians will say
事实上就是那个终极的不可变的上帝 Ah, they are not worrying about that problem
在圣经里面清楚不含糊地 They see Trinity in Scripture
提到了三位一体 then by godly is the Trinity
犹斯丁说这是不可能的 Then the most interesting move
因为这个不能变的上帝 produced by Jewish exegesis
不会对亚伯拉罕显现 and we'll see it in Trypho
但是后来的基督徒会说 And this becomes typical in, excuse me
他们才不担心这个问题呢 in medieval Jewish Bible interpretation
他们在圣经中看到了三位一体 is to argue that Genesis 18:1
神作证就是三位一体 has nothing to do then, Genesis 18:2
最有趣的一个观点 Genesis 18:1, Lord appeared to Abraham
来自犹太人的释经 Period, end of story
我们会在特来弗的著作中读到 New story, 18:2
这会成为典型的 抱歉 Abraham lifted up his eyes and saw three men
中世纪犹太人典型的圣经解读 Three angels
是说创世记第18章第1节 Now I agree with you
和创世记第18章第2节没有任何关系 This seems to be
创世记第18章第1节 耶和华向亚伯拉罕显现 I kind of saw desperation here
就此打住 故事完了 of trying to get out of a difficult problem
新的故事 第18章第2节 But that's what Trypho says
亚伯拉罕举目观看 看到三个人 And that's exactly what you'll find in Rashi
三个天使 and various other medieval exegesis
我同意你的观点 So 18:1, Lord appeared to Abraham
这看起来 Goodbye, the Lord ran away
我看到了一种绝望 Then 18:2, three men came to Abraham
想要试图解决这个麻烦的问题 who turns out to be three angels
但是这就是特来弗说的 Okay, my point here is not
而且和在Rashi中看到的 who's right and who's wrong
还有各种中世纪释经一模一样 My point here is simply I just show you
第18章第1节 耶和华向亚伯拉罕显现 how people working with Scripture
再见 耶和华走了 are struck by these problematic passages
然后第18章第2节 三个人来到亚伯拉罕面前 that require interpretation
就是那三个天使 Do I have time?
我在这里不是想说 Maybe I do, maybe I don't, I'll do it
谁是对的谁是错的 So, I wanna show quickly some Christian art
我只是想告诉同学们 which is just stunning
人们是怎么研究圣经的 Do I turn that up already? do I do that?
在处理这些需要解读的诸多段落时 I think I did
遇到了什么样的困难 Here, you have here a series of pictures
我还有时间吗 This is from Santa Maria Maggiore
也许有 也许没有 不管了 which is a large pilgrimage church in Rome
我给大家快速看一些基督教的画作 Here you have a picture of Abraham
让人震撼的作品 and the story of the angels
投影仪打开了吗 可以吗 So here are the three angels
我想应该打开了 Here is Sarah, preparing bread for the three visitors
这里有一系列的画作 These look like little, what they are?
这是来自圣母大教堂 Look like little turnovers of some kind
是罗马的一个很大的朝圣教堂 Anyway, you have here above
这是一张亚伯拉罕的画作 He's greeting the three
关于天使的故事 And here we have the three eating
这就是那三个天使 So here each of them has a halo
这是撒拉 在给三位客人准备面包 So I don't know do we have here
这看起来有点 这是什么 a Justin understanding or
好像是把什么东西打翻了 Logos and two angels?
总之 上面这部分是 Or we seem to have a Trinity understanding?
他在向三位致敬 These are the three persons of the Trinity?
下面是三个天使在吃东西 Or these three angels
他们都有一个光环 I'm not sure
我不知道这里是 But this one is more interesting
犹斯丁所理解的 Above, you have this guy, he has a halo
道和两个天使 He has a halo, so is the middle one
还是关于三位一体的理解 But the middle one has something called
这三个人是三位一体吗 the history of art called mandorla
或者是三个天使 which is a full-body halo, see?
我不确定 Which will suggest that the middle one
但是这个更有意思 is quantitatively higher than the two side ones
上面的部分 这个人 他有个光环 So over here on this level of the art
他有个光环 而中间的那个 It looks like the three are the same
中间的那个有一个叫做 All three are angels
艺术上叫做尖椭圆光轮 All three are the persons of Trinity
是一种全身的光环 看到了吗 I'm not sure
这会暗示着中间的这一位 Whereas in this scene
比边上的两位更加重要 which is the same before this one
从下面的部分看来 Here they see them
看起来三个人的一样的 And here they were eating
三个天使是一样的 Here we have the mandorlas
他们都是三位一体的中的位格 around the middle one
我不确定 not the other two
但是在这个场景中 which will suggest that
和之前的是一样的 the understanding of this is
我们看到天使 the Lord's surrounded by two angels
天使们在吃东西 Or this is the Logos surrounded by two angels
中间的这一位 I'm not sure of that
有尖椭圆光轮 This one little picture I can see
另外两位没有 already that the artist is trying to
可能是在暗示 trying to envision the scene
对此的理解是 from a Christian perspective
耶和华由两位天使陪伴 And have two Christian understandings
或者是道由两个天使陪伴 of the same scene
我不确定 Yes
这张画作我认为 At the bottom
是艺术家在试图用 Are those both divisions of Abraham?
基督徒的角度 Or one of them
来想象这个场景 Yes, I think this is Abraham talking to Sarah
在同一个场景上有两种 Where it says
基督徒的理解方法 She goes Abraham within the tent
请说 This is the tent over here
下面那部分 With an extra cross in the front, right
那两个人都是亚伯拉罕吗 This is the tent
或者其中一个 And here Sarah with three
是的 我想这是亚伯拉罕在和撒拉说话 makes three loafs
他说 And then this is scene 2
(希伯来语) So Abraham was repeated again
她和亚伯拉罕一起进了帐篷 That's how I understand the scene
这边就是帐篷 Okay, so here is Abraham serving
上面有个十字 对吧 you could see him serving the three guests
这就是帐篷 Okay, you can see another
这边是撒拉和三个 There is a beautiful one, this one
做了三个面包 Here is Abraham with three guests
这是场景之二 Again, they have three halos
重复画了一遍亚伯拉罕 Here is Abraham with Sarah in the tent
我是这样理解这个场景的 And here are these bread
这是亚伯拉罕在服务 which look like Communion wafer
可以看到他在为三位客人服务 Alright, they have signs of cross on them
可以看看另外一幅 Which we saw, that's the
这是一幅很漂亮的画作 这一幅 That's standard for Christian wafers
这是亚伯拉罕和三位客人 So again, this is a Christian scene
同样 他们有三个光环 Here of course Abraham is about to
这是亚伯拉罕和撒拉在帐篷里面 slaughter Isaac in the Akedah
这是那些面包 Okay, yes
看起来像是圣餐饼 Those sort of so similarity
在上面有一个十字标记 is one based on the other one?
可以看到 这是 I don't know
这是基督教圣餐饼的规范 Many scholars have argued that
所以这是一个基督教的场景 Jewish, and also ancient Jewish artists
这当然是Akedah中的 have a kind of workbook
亚伯拉罕准备要杀死以撒 that to say, okay
好了 请说 what scene do you want in your church, lady?
这两张画看起来很类似 Or man?
是一张基于另外一张画的吗 You want this one, sure
我不知道 You want that one? Sure, I can do that
很多学者认为 You know, then they produce a
犹太人 还有古代犹太艺术家 church art or synagogue art
有一本工作手册 to work around these books
也就是说 We don't have a copy of any of those books
你想在教堂里面画上什么场景 女士 They will explain why they
或者先生 often have so many standardized type scenes
你想要这个 好的 with the same elements
你想要这个 好的 没有问题 often depicted in similar ways
然后他们就根据这些手册 So that's the common suggestion
创作教堂艺术 But we can't prove it
或者犹太会堂艺术 Okay?
我们没有这类书中任何一本的副本 This is from Ravenna, this one, San Vitale
这些书能够解释 If I did not get it wrong, I didn't get to
为什么总是能看到一些标准场景 Okay, that's to get you ensure
使用同样的元素 it's a Christian scene, right?
总是以类似的方式描述 Okay, go back to where we are
这是常见的一种解释 Good, okay,I figure it out, okay
但是我们没法证明 Questions, we keep going?
好了 You find the stuff fascinating, cos I do
这张来自拉文那 圣维塔莱教堂 I hope you do
如果我没有弄错的话 Yes, Harry
这能让你们确定 Those are pictures of Jeremiah
这是基督教场景 对吧 the top corner of that?
好了 回到我们讲的地方 That's Jeremiah the prophet
很好 好了 我弄明白了 You don't want to leave an empty space
有问题吗 还是继续讲 in these mosaics
觉得这些东西很令人着迷吗 我这样认为 real estate is precious
希望你们也一样 So you throw a prophet here, you know
请说 Harry No direct influence to the scene?
上面那个角落里面的 Not do I know of
是耶利米吗 You can think of one, let me know
是耶利米先知 Oops
你不会想在马赛克上 Okay, let's keep going, good
留下空白 I left on the page
空间很珍贵的 I gave you paragraph 127 from Justin
所以就放一个先知上去 The unbegotten God did not
对这个场景没有直接影响吗 speak with the patriarchs or with Moses
据我所知没有 I explained that already
如果你想到了 告诉我 60.2, I love this one
哎呦 No one with even the slightest intelligence
好了 咱们继续 很好 would dare to assert that
在讲义上 the Creator of all things
我给了你们犹斯丁的第127段 left his super-celestial realms
那个自生的上帝不会 to make himself visible in a little spot on earth
不会和族长或者摩西交谈 That makes no sense
我已经解释过了 The fact that for millennia
60.2 我喜欢这段 Jews and Christians alike believe it
只要有一点脑子的人 it's not beside the point
都不敢声称 If you are philosophically educated
万物的创造者 as Justin is
离开他天上的国度 then one cannot imagine it
而让自己显现在人间的一个小空间里面 It just makes no sense
这完全说不通 Cos he's not the super-celestial unbegotten God
事实上一千年以来 It is the begotten God
犹太人和基督徒都同样相信 It is the Logos of God
这没有跑题 That's what interacts with man
如果你受过哲学教育 Okay, line 128 is a counter argument
就像犹斯丁 I'm not gonna unpack that one
没有人能够这样想象 That requires a lot of chewing on
完全没有任何道理 But I'm just gonna move along, right?
因为他不是那个在天上的自生的上帝 If you have time, energy
他是受生的上帝 Chew on that paragraph 128
他是道的上帝 This is a counter argument
和人类交流的上帝 Hence for Justin there are two Gods
第128行是一个对立的观点 That's his language
我不打算展开讲 It's not mine, alright?
这需要细细品味 There are two Gods
我准备继续往后面讲 There is God No.1
如果你有时间有力气 What later Christians will call God the Father
细细体会下第128段 And then we have God No.2
这是一个对立的观点 Called God the Son
因此对犹斯丁来说有两个上帝 And these two Gods, of course
这是他的原话 are distinct in number
不是我说的 as Justin said earlier
有两个上帝 That's why we have two, but one in mind
有上帝一号 With that formulation
后来的基督徒成为圣父 Justin is already alluding to those
还有上帝二号 Christological controversies that will
被成为圣子 rip the church apart in the 4th century
这两个上帝 当然 as different churchmen, thinkers, philosophers
数字上明显有分别 will try to articulate
就像犹斯丁之前说的 how exactly we imagine
这就是为什么我们有两个上帝 但是脑中只有一个 the relationship of God the Father
以这种构想 to God the Son
犹斯丁已经开始暗示 of God No.1 to God No.2
基督论的争辩 Justin is in the 2nd century, not the 4th
会在公元四世纪让教会分道扬镳 So these Christological controversies
因为不同的牧师 思想家 哲学家 are still in the future, right?
会试图解释清楚 But one can see Justin is already grappling
到底我们怎么想象 with these most central of all
圣父和圣子 Christian theological problems
之间的关系 So Justin makes this explicit on this point
上帝一号和上帝二号的关系 There is another God
犹斯丁在公元二世纪 不是四世纪 the Son, the Creator of the world
所以这些基督论争辩 Cos the Creator of the world is
还是未来的事情 对吧 the Logos, God, Christ
但是我们看到犹斯丁已经在努力解释 Whereas the unbegotten God is the other God
基督教神学理论中 There are two Gods
最核心的问题 Justin of course derives all these from the Scripture
犹斯丁在这点上很明确表示 He quotes various Psalms
还有另外一个上帝 as his main pieces of evidence
圣子 世界的创造者 Or he quotes various other passages in Scripture
因为世界的创造者是 Where he thinks he sees
道 上帝 基督 a contrast between one God and another
而自生的上帝是另外一个上帝 To be fair to Justin
有两个上帝 I think we have to say
犹斯丁当然是从圣经里得出的这些 Justin is not so much deriving
他引用了一些诗篇 this idea from the Scripture
作为主要的证据 so much as he is reading it into Scripture
还引用了圣经里面很多其他段落 Cos where Justin is coming from
他认为他看到了 is the same place Philo was coming from
一个上帝和另外一个上帝的差别 Namely, the knowledge of philosophy
对犹斯丁公平的话 If you marry philosophy to Scripture
我想我们必须说 Then you realize that
犹斯丁不是从圣经中 its portrait of God in Scripture
得出了这些想法 is hopelessly naive
而且他把这些想法注入了圣经 hopelessly simple minded
因为犹斯丁和斐洛 And therefore you got to clean it up
是从同一个地方来的 That's something both
也就是说 对于哲学的认知 Jews and Christians will do
如果你把哲学和圣经结合起来 So one way Justin is cleaning it up
你会发现 He just argue that he God who walks and talks
上帝在圣经中的形象 the God who gets angry
是不可救药的幼稚 the God who laughs
不可救药的单纯 the God who seems to have a body, right
所以你必须对此进行挽救 That God in Scripture
这是犹太人和 That is the Logos God
基督徒都会做的事情 That is Christ
犹斯丁一种挽救的方式 The God who is Christ
就是说那个四处游走说话的上帝 And thereby the unbegotten God
那个会生气的上帝 Is kept at perfect isolation
那个会笑的上帝 Or is kept in his profession
那个看起来是有肉身的上帝 away from the world of matter, decay, death
那个圣经中的上帝 Okay, Jesus is God
是道的上帝 Son of unbegotten God
是基督 Jesus is the first begotten of all creation
那个上帝就是基督 Right, this language that will wind up
而那个自生的上帝 in the Nicene Creed, right
保持着完美的隔离 the unbegotten God
或者保存着自己的专业 and then the begotten God
远离这个物质的 衰退的 死亡的世界 So here comes the last big points
耶稣是上帝 Christian binitarianism vs. Jewish binitarianism
自生的圣子 This is a fancy word, binitary, right
耶稣是万物的第一个受生 Like binary, right?
这种说法最后会成为 Arguing that God is two but a unity
尼西亚信经的一部分 A unified group of two
自生的上帝 Yes, a single thing of two
和受生的上帝 So it's binitary
接下来是最后一个重点 Christians believe in an incarnate God
基督教的二元神论主义和犹太教的二元神论主义 Jews do not
这是个很华丽的词 二元神论 Right, it's partly Christian mystery
像是二元 对吧 It's not only this idea that
认为上帝有两个位格 但是个整体 God is one and yet two
统一的二元 Not only the idea that
有二元的单一体 There is an unbegotten God
所以叫二元神论 which who begets a begotten God
基督徒信仰上帝有化身 And that begotten God is God
犹太人不是这样 and yet separate from God the same time
这在一定程度上是基督教的迷 Compounded the Christian theological mystery
不仅仅是上帝是一个 and the word mystery is used
同时又是两个这种想法 by Christians themselves not just me
不仅仅是 the Christian mystery
有一个自生的上帝 Compounded that mystery
生出了一个受生的上帝这种想法 Or make it even more mysterious
那个受生的上帝是上帝 is the idea that the begotten God
但是又同时和自生的上帝分离开来 Namely, Christ, is also incarnate
混合着基督教的神学的迷 Right, puts on a human body
迷这个词基督徒自己也用 Or in the language of Melito of Sardis
不止是我这样说 You remember from last time
基督教的迷 It wears a body
混着这个谜 Even those Jews who are well disposed
或者说更加神秘的是 towards a Logos theology
受生的上帝的想法 Even those Jews would say
也就是基督 同时也有肉身 No, no
穿上了人类的身体之衣 If he's God, he's God
或者用撒狄的墨利托的说法 He's human, he's human
还记得上次讲的吗 He can't be God and human at the same time
他穿上了身体之衣 I'm sorry
就算是那些倾向于相信 Christian response will be
道的理论的犹太人 in classical theology will be
就算是那些犹太人也会说 That Christ is both 100% God
不对 不对 and 100% human at the same time
如果他是上帝 那就是上帝 That gets, brings us again into the 4th century
他是人 那就是人 with those very vicious debates among Christians
他不能同时是上帝还是人 about how exactly to articulate
抱歉 relationship of God to the Father
基督徒的回应是 relationship of God to his human self
经典神学理论的回应是 Okay, Justin is not there yet
基督同时是百分之百的上帝 He's not working out these things in detail
也是百分之百的人 But in principle it's clear to him
这再次把我们带到公元四世纪 That Jesus is God, Christ
那些基督徒之间的激烈辩论 And Christ also puts on human form, human flesh
关于如何完全说清楚 in that guys suffers on the cross
上帝和圣父的关系 After all, God does not suffer
上帝和他人类身份的关系 Human suffer
犹斯丁还没有理解到这一步 Okay, the Jewish response to that is
他还没有对细节部分进行研究 that God is God
但是原则上他坚信 and God can't be human, you're mixing categories
基督是上帝 耶稣 And the Christian responses, well
耶稣穿上了人形之衣 肉身之衣 That's part of the Christian mystery
就是他在十字架上受难 Yes, Annie
毕竟上帝不会受难 So what did Jews think of messiah will be
人类才会 when he comes?
犹太人对此的回应是 Ah, we'll talk about messiah
上帝就是上帝 in the next week and the week after
上帝不能是人 你们弄混类别了 It's on our list, right
基督徒对此的回应 So Christians have this mysterious idea
就是基督教的迷的一部分了 that Christ is not just God
请说 Annie not just Son of God
当弥赛亚来临的时候犹太人认为 not just human, right
会是什么样子 Christ also has a whole bunch of more titles, right
我们会在下周和大下周 He's also messiah, he's also prophet
讲到弥赛亚的内容 I don't know, he's all kinds of things, right
是我们的日程上 Which is part of the mystery
基督徒有个神秘的想法 speaking historically
基督不止是上帝 Where this Christian theology came from?
不止是圣子 Cos you combine things in ways that are
不止是人 otherwise unparallel anywhere in ancient Judaism
基督同时还有其他很多头衔 So, right, so for most Jews
他也是弥赛亚 他也是先知 The messiah is not a divine figure
我不知道 他是所有这些东西 Yes
这都是迷的一部分 I'm not sure this is more, 4th century
从历史的角度说 You are Chris, right?
基督徒神学从哪里来的 Yes
因为如果不是以这种方式把一切合并起来 I'm not sure this is more 4th century
就会导致和古代犹太主义不相符 but how do they do
所以对大多数犹太人来说 how do Christians deal with
弥赛亚不是个神圣的形象 Justin's lecture, Justion's argument
请说 Justin's worry or saying, you know
我不确定这是在公元四世纪 God the first versus the second
你是Chris 对吧 Nicene Creed calls it judgment
是的 But at the same time they are saying man
我不确定这是在公元四世纪 it's the same line?
但是他们 Yes
基督徒怎么样处理 I say, Justin is at the beginning of this
犹斯丁的文章 犹斯丁的观点 philosophical rewriting, revision of Christianity
犹斯丁的担心或者说 that will climax in the 4th century
第一个上帝和第二个上帝的对抗 He's not there yet
尼西亚信经叫做判决 So you can't be angry at him
但是同时他们还说到了人 that he's not precisely following
是同一行 his Orthodox vocabulary, Orthodox ways of
是的 depicting the relationship with
我说了犹斯丁刚刚开始 the persons of the Trinity
这些哲学的写作 修正基督教义 Justin is not like Melito of Sardis
在公元四世纪会达到顶峰 Right, he's before this explosion
他的分析还没有涉及这些 of discussion on the subject
你不能对他生气 So I believe Justin is looked at it as
因为他没有严格地追随 for one of the members of the forerunners
正统东正教词汇 东正教描述的 of Orthodox church or the Greek church
人类和三位一体 as it's sometimes called
之间的关系 Or Nicene Christianity
犹斯丁就像是撒狄的墨利托 Right, Justin is seen it around the road to that
他所处的时代是在 But we agree, after all it's not his fault
这些话题被广泛讨论之前 He lived two centuries earlier
所以我认为可以把犹斯丁看成 So if he says things that are not exactly right
是东正教会和希腊教会 That's okay
这些人中的一个先行者 Right, no, sorry
有些时候会这样叫 That's not 200 years, 150 years earlier
或者尼西亚基督教义 Other questions or observations
犹斯丁看起来还游离在这些之外 Yes, sir
但是我们同意这不是他的错 So are we saying the Logos as also pre-existent?
他生活的时间早了两个世纪 Yes, Wisdom equals Logos equals Christ
所以他说的有些东西不是完全正确 Absolutely, pre-existent
这没关系 That's Proverbs 8, that's John 1, right?
不对 抱歉 Logos was there with God
不是200年 是早了150年 at the beginning of times
还有其他问题和观点吗 Which is Christ
请说 Yup?
能说道也是先于创世的吗 I believe that is more of Christian theology
是的 智慧等同于道等同于基督 I can't say nowadays what's going on
绝对是先于创世的 But at least I can tell you
箴言第8章 约翰福音第1章 对吧 Classically speaking, that is Christian theology
太初 道与神 Yes, David?
同在 Deduction of the resurrection of the body
也就是基督 Yes
是的 Does anyone deal with that issue
我相信这更大程度上是基督教神学理论 at the same time of these issues
现在的解释我不太清楚 You mean, Christ's resurrection
但是至少可以告诉你 you mean particularly or in general?
经典的解释 这就是基督教神学理论 At the end of days
请说 David And a lot of lower case o orthodox Christians
我想问的是关于省略 肉身复活 的问题 believe at the end of time
好的 That we will all be resurrected
当时有没有人考虑这个问题 in a physical body
也就是人们考虑你刚才问题的时代 That's correct, we get our bodies back
你是说耶稣的复活 So this notion of a body existing
是特指还是一般而言 in ways that are very different from the ways
在世纪末日 bodies that existed just around us today
很多正统的基督徒 Does it exist elsewhere
都相信在世界末日 in Judaism and in Christianity?
我们的肉体 Did that issue ever get doubt with it
会复活 here, when people are examining
是的 我们的肉体会复活 this incarnationism?
所以这种肉体存在的概念 I don't know
和我们的肉体现在 Resurrection is discussed
存在的方式非常不同 and of course both Jews and Christians
这个观点在犹太主义 play off the tension between two different ideas
和基督教义其他地方存在吗 One is the vitality of the soul
这个问题在人们 one is the resurrection of the body
研究道成肉身这一说法时候 which logically are alternatives
被质疑过吗 one to the other
我不知道 but which one is getting combined
犹太人和基督徒 with both Jewish and Christian thinkers alike
当然都在讨论复活的问题 But I'm not sure that reflects on
讨论着两个不同的有冲突的想法 the issues of understanding Jesus's incarnation
其一是灵魂的生命力 If you think you have an eternal soul
其一是肉体的复活 And you think that's gonna be reunited
从逻辑上是彼此 with the body
可以替代的说法 It makes the notion of incarnationism
但是犹太人和基督徒一样 a little bit less bizarre, right?
把二者结合了起来 I got to think about that
但是我不确定这是对于 As far as I know, Justin for example
如何理解耶稣的道成肉身问题的反思 does not combine these ideas
如果你认为自己有永恒的灵魂 as I remembered
你认为这会不会是 Everything is not due yet
身体的重聚 I say I have to wait
这让道成肉身的概念 When it happens, I don't know
这就不那么奇怪了 对吧 If you find out, let me know
我得想想这个问题 Okay, let's move it?
据我所知 以犹斯丁为例 Next big point
没有合并这些概念 Jews are monolatrous
我记得是没有的 Christians are polylatrous
所有的事情还没有发生 If I can make up this ugly-sounding word
我说必须要等待 Meaning
当一切发生的时候 我不知道 Jews believe in the One God
如果你知道答案了 记得告诉我 Christians believe in the One God
好了 咱们继续 Except that Jews worship the One God, period
下一个重点 Even Jews who believe in the Logos
犹太人是一神崇拜 Like Philo
基督徒是多神崇拜 Even Jews who believe that
如果我可以创造个很难听的词 the Name of God, Glory of God
意思是 the angel of God are somehow
犹太人信仰一个上帝 beings that are hypostasized
基督徒信仰一个上帝 These are actual things
除了犹太人崇拜一个上帝 就此打住 Even Jews who believe this
就算是信仰道的基督徒 do not worship these
比如斐洛 beings, creatures, things
就是那些相信 Philo never once prays to the Logos
上帝之名 上帝的荣耀 Philo never once worships the Logos
上帝的信使之类 For Philo
人格化的存在 the idea that Logos is a way to solve
这些都是实际的生灵的犹太人 a difficult philosophical problem
就算是这些犹太人 In Christianity, as it turned out
也不会崇拜这些 The belief in the Logos and
存在 生物 生灵 these other intermediary titles, beings, things
斐洛从来没有向道祈祷过 are not just ways of understanding
斐洛从来没有崇拜过道 how God relates to the world
对斐洛来说 Not just ways of explaining
道的概念是用来解决 the philosophical verses of the Scripture
一个艰深的哲学问题 Not just ways of understanding creation
而在基督教义中结果是 They also are key to Christian worship
对于道的信仰 After all, we worship the Lord
和那些媒介的头衔 存在 生灵 Namely, Christ
不止是理解上帝如何和 Even as you recognize there is a God
这个世界相互作用的方法 Omnipotent God, Christ is part of God
不止是解释 Whatever you formulate it
圣经中的哲学章节的方法 We recognize that
不止是理解创造世界的方法 At the same time in worship, in church
同时也是解开基督徒崇拜问题的钥匙 We worship Christ
毕竟我们崇拜耶和华 The Jews run around worshipping
也就是基督 any of these intermediaries
就算你承认有一个上帝 beings or powers
无所不能的上帝 基督是上帝的一部分 The answer is, as far as we know
不管你怎么样表达 The answer is no
我们承认这一点 Not in the temple, and not in synagogues
同时我们崇拜 在教堂中 Except the magic rituals
我们崇拜基督 and some strands of medieval Judaism
犹太人对于这些 Okay, too diligence there
媒介的崇拜 Right, I can't deal with everything in this course
生灵或者力量 Right? But interestingly enough
答案是 据我所知 in higher medieval Judaism
他们不崇拜 some of these intermediaries make a comeback
不在圣殿里面 也不在犹太教堂里面 They become objects of personal prayer
除了那些神奇的仪式 Not public, communal prayer
一些中世纪犹太主义的标准仪式 but personal devotions
好了 讲得太细了 You can occasionally pray
我不能在这课程中什么都讲到 to an angel or something
但是非常有趣的是 But that is usually frowned upon
在高级的中世纪犹太主义中 by rabbinic authorities
这些媒介中的一些东山再起了 Then perhaps you hear even Christian influence
他们成了个人祈祷的对象 I can't discuss this now
不是公共的祈祷对象 I'm now going to, don't ask me about it
是个人祈祷 Okay, back to where we was
你可以偶尔 So in Christianity
向天使什么的祈祷 we have a worship of Logos
但是这常常让拉比们 In Judaism, we don't
感到不满 That's what I meant when I said
也许你甚至听到过基督教对此的影响 Judaism is monolatrous
我现在不能讲这个 Whether we call any of these things monotheism
我不打算讲 不要问我相关的问题 I don't know
好了 言归正传 But I do know that in Judaism
在基督教中 Jews are worshipping the One God only
我们有对道的崇拜 even if they believe in other things
在犹太主义中 没有 Whereas Christians are worshipping
这就是当我说 as Justin would say it, Two Gods
犹太主义是一神崇拜的意思 the unbegotten God and the begotten God
我们把这个叫做一神崇拜主义 We don't have time to talk about now
我不知道 about the Virgin Mary and saints
但是我知道在犹太教中 and other things, okay
犹太人只崇拜一个上帝 That's, you know, that's too much to deal with
就算是他们信仰其他东西 Next big bullet point
而基督徒崇拜 Anyone argues with me on that?
就像犹斯丁说的 两个上帝 Or discusses this point?
自生的上帝和受生的上帝 I'am ready for a fight
我们现在没有时间讨论 Nay, you are all docile, okay
圣母玛利亚和圣徒 Christians solve the problem of
还有其他的东西 transcendent creator of God
这些需要讲的太多了 by positing an intermediary being, right
下一个重点 They got the Logos, the hypostasized Wisdom
有人想就此争论下吗 Capital W, right
或者讨论下 This time, nearby
我准备好迎战了 What might say as logical?
没有 你们都太温顺了 好吧 These are incompatible notions
基督徒通过加入 But somehow they are both true
中介的存在解决了 Whereas in Christianity of course
超然的 造物者上帝的问题 It's Christ who is nearby
有道 有实体化的智慧 It is Christ to who harvest the prayer
专有名词智慧 Last point, Christian binitarianism
这个时间 附近的 gives way to Trinitarianism
怎么样说才符合逻辑 As I mentioned before
这都是冲突的概念 Justin Martyr does not know the trinity, period
但是说来二者都是正确的 Justin Martyr never heard of the trinity
在基督教中当然 Justin Martyr does not know
是基督在附近 that God has three persons
是基督在收获祈祷 He's writing around the year 160
最后一点 基督教的二元神论主义 He knows there is a spirit of Lord
让位于三位一体论 somehow it's called the Holy Ghost
我之前提到过 Right, there is a spirit
殉道士犹斯丁不知道三位一体 就此打住 he knows about that
殉道士犹斯丁从没听说过三位一体 After all, it's a reference to Scriptures
殉道士犹斯丁不知道 So sure he knows it, right
上帝有三个位格 But that's not for him
他写作于公元160年 One of a triune God
他知道上帝是有灵魂的 Triune, three in one, right
有些时候叫做圣灵 It is not a triune God for Justin
有一个圣灵 We have to wait centuries down the road
他知道这个 for that third aspect of Christian theology
毕竟 这是圣经里面提到的 to take its place
他当然会知道 对吧 And it's always been the weak link
但是他不知道 It's always been the tail end
一个三一神 The Christian theologians always
三位一体 三个合为一个 spent much more time, energy
犹斯丁不知道三一神 worried about God the Father and God the Son
我们必须等上几个世纪 than they are about the spirit
才有了基督教神学的第三位格 Yes, the spirit
出现 I'm not quite sure the history of that
这也总是最弱的一个环节 When, why, where
这总是最后的结尾 the spirit was elevated to the triune God
基督教神学家总是 And so in the Nicene Creed
花上更多的时间 精力 So by the time you get to Nicene
来解释圣父和圣子 It is already the third person of the trinity
而对圣灵的问题没那么上心 Justin still only has two persons
是的 圣灵 Okay, time's up [Rhine & trismile Production]
我不确定这段历史
什么时间 为什么 在哪里
圣灵被提高到了三一神中
在尼西亚信经里面就是这样
所以到了尼西亚时代
就已经有了三位一体的三个位格
犹斯丁时代只有两个位格
好了 时间到了 [Rhine & trismile Production]