撒狄的墨利托和基督教逾越节 I was talking on Monday
我在周一讲了 about that first trajectory
第一条轨迹 of Last Supper
最后的晚餐 Last Supper
最后的晚餐 What is flashing like that?
刚才的闪光是什么 Last Supper, Eucharist, Passion of Christ
最后的晚餐 圣餐 基督受难 Easter, right?
复活节 对吧 That was that trajectory that we are on
这是其中一条轨迹 And the point was that
重点在于 when Christians work out
当基督徒创立 the celebration of Easter, right?
复活节的时候 There is a profound memory still of paschal lamb
还是对逾越节羔羊有深刻的记忆 There is a memory of the pascal feasts
对逾越节晚宴的记忆 still lurking behind
还会出现在 Christian celebration of Easter
基督教庆祝复活节的背后 For that I brought you
所以我给大家 that wonderful prayer from
讲了公祷书里面 the Book of Common Prayer
优美的祷文 That's what we did last time
这是我们上节课讲的 I didn't say the obvious was
我没有明说的是 that just as in the rabbinic Seder
和拉比逾越节家宴一样 We imagine ourselves
我们想象自己 being redeemed from Egypt, right?
被从埃及救赎 对吧 That we have vicarious Exodus
我们对出埃及感同身受 Our ancestors were redeemed from Egypt
我们的祖先被从埃及救赎 We are redeemed from slavery
我们被解除了奴隶身份 What slavery are we redeemed from?
我们解除了什么奴隶身份 Metaphorical, real, not very clear
比喻的 真实的 不是很清楚 But just as we participated in their redemption
但是就像我们感受到了他们的救赎 Similarly for Christians
基督徒的也很类似 Right? This is a vicarious kind of redemption
这是一种对救赎的代入感 The redemption from Egypt
从埃及被救赎 prefigures past event
预示着过去的事情 prefigures future redemptions
预示着未来的救赎 The death of Christ is redemption from sin
基督之死是从罪恶中救赎 for himself, for all humanity, for me
为他自己 为全人类 为我 Okay, so we have that
我们有 same sort of narrative that work
同样的这种叙事 Okay, now we are looking at trajectory No.2
现在我们看看第二条轨迹 Trajectory No.2
第二条轨迹 which gets us from Last Supper
从最后的晚餐开始 from the paschal lamb
从逾越节羔羊 Last Supper, celebration of the Passover
最后的晚餐 庆祝逾越节 Words of institution
祝圣祷文 This is my blood, this is my body
这是我的血 这是我的身体 And we move forward into the Eucharist
然后继续讲到圣餐 Right? The formation of the
基督教圣餐仪式 Christian liturgy of the Eucharist
如何形成 Here, if I understand
在这里 如果我对 Christian trajectory correctly
基督教的轨迹理解正确 Here interestingly enough
这里最有趣的是 the Passover connection is forgotten
逾越节的关联被遗忘了 Right, the Eucharist is taken out
圣餐取消了自己和 of its Passover connection
逾越节的联系 So Easter retains its Passover connection
复活节还保持着和逾越节的联系 but the Eucharist does not, right
但是圣餐仪式没有了 And this associates itself from Passover
这种和逾越节的联系 in two ways in the course of Christian history
在基督教历史中发展出了两个方向 where it becomes something independent
成为了一种独立的东西 something freestanding
没有附属关系的东西 One is, this is associated
其一是 这种和 from the festival of Easter-Passover
复活节-逾越节的联系 that becomes a ritual that
成为了一种可以在 can be observed at any point
任何时间实施的仪式 Right, anyway, it begins with Paul
总之 这是从保罗开始的 who referring to the Words of Institution
他在最后的晚餐上 at the Last Supper, right
提到了祝圣祷文 Paul does not mention the obvious fact
保罗没有提到的明显的事实是 that this happens at the paschal lamb
这是发生在逾越节羔羊上 with the paschal meal
逾越节晚餐上 It's independent
这里是独立的 It just seems to be floating chronologically
似乎成了一种不固定的时间表 Later in Christianity in Christian history
之后在基督教历史上 We'll see
我们看到 We won't see in this course
我们不会在本课程看到 We'll see elsewhere, sorry
可以在别处看到 抱歉 In later Christian history
在之后的基督教历史中 some Christian groups will retain
一些基督教团体保留了 Baptism and Eucharist
洗礼和圣餐 that's particularly fitting rituals for Easter
这些适合复活节的仪式 There, once a year
每年一次 will be the occasion for these things
会有实施这些仪式的时间 But as Christianity goes on
但是随着基督教的发展 the notion, the Eucharist
这种概念 圣餐 and the Communion are celebrated all the time
和圣餐仪式会经常被举行 And in fact nowadays it's quite common
事实上现在已经很平常了 Every Sunday you can go to a church
每个星期天都可以去教堂 and partake of Communion
参加圣餐仪式 There have been debates
基督教的团体 within Christian groups
曾经有过争论 about how often, when, where
关于多久一次 什么时候 在哪里 Communion would be celebrated
举行一次圣餐仪式 But the link with Easter is broken
但是和复活节的联系被打破了 Right, and becomes just a freestanding ritual
成为了一种独立的仪式 Similarly
类似地 in the Words of Institution in the Gospels
福音书中的圣祷文 Jesus is having a meal with his disciples
耶稣和他的门徒同进晚餐 So originally Eucharist in the Gospel text
福音书中最开始的圣餐 is not just associated with Passover
不止是和逾越节有关联 It's associated with the Passover meal
和逾越节晚餐也有关联 And in Christian liturgy, Christian history
在基督教的礼拜仪式 基督历史中 the link with Passover is broken
和逾越节的联系被打破了 and also, the link with the meal
同样和逾越节晚餐的联系也被打破了 It becomes a freestanding ritual
成为了独立的仪式 wherein the food, the blood, wine
而这些食物 血 酒 bread, body, right
面包 身体 becomes symbolic food
成为了象征性的食物 It's not part of the actual formal meal
不再是真正的正式晚餐的一部分 There are some evidence that
有些证据表明 perhaps early on
也许在早期 this was celebrated in the context of meals
确实会在进餐的过程中举行仪式 and Christians do have liturgical meals
基督徒确实有礼拜仪式晚餐 which usually called agape feasts, right
通常被称为爱宴餐 Which seems to have
看起来似乎 some sort of independent existence
是一种独立的存在 Cos by the time we get to
因为到了我们的朋友 our friend Justin Martyr
殉道士犹斯丁的年代 And that's on your new lecture handout
这些我给大家的新讲义上有 This is a paragraph I quote
我引用的是这一段 from Justin's apology
来自犹斯丁的辩解集 Not the Dialogue with Trypho
不是与特来弗的对话 You will not find this passage
在与特来弗的对话里面 in Dialogue with Trypho
找不到这段 You will find it in another book that Justin wrote
但是在另外一本犹斯丁的书里面有 The First Apology
第一辩解集 Which is fine, just gave you the reference
没有关系 只是给大家的参考书目 and the passage you can look at
和可以看的段落 and which we see already
可以发现已经是 is a freestanding liturgical act
独立的礼拜仪式了 The Communion has nothing
圣餐仪式和逾越节 to do with Passover
没有任何关系 Nothing to do with the meal
和逾越节晚餐没有任何关系 It's something done on a Sunday
只是在周日举行的 It's a freestanding liturgical act
一种独立的礼拜仪式 So here Christian history took
所以基督教历史 the Eucharist out of its paschal context
把圣餐从逾越节的背景中分离出来 and develop it into a central ritual
将其发展成了教会生活的 in the life of the church
一种中心仪式 Okay, last big point on that
最后一个要点 And then we can get onto Melito of Sardis
然后我们就开始讲撒狄的墨利托 What do we Christians do
当我们分享了基督的 when we partake of the body
身体和血 我们基督徒 and blood of Christ?
是在做什么 Well, we participate
我们参与了 Christ becomes in us
基督成了我们的一员 And at some level
在某种程度上 we are united with Christ in such a way
我们以某种方式和基督结合在了一起 So that just as Christ died
所以当基督死去 and was resurrected
然后复活 Similarly, we die and are resurrected
类似地 我们也死去然后复活 In other words
换句话说 we Christians triumphs over death
我们基督徒战胜了死亡 Or another way to put it
或者换种方法说 we Christians triumphs over sin
我们基督徒战胜了罪恶 Because death is caused by sin
因为罪恶导致了死亡 So by triumphing over death
所以通过战胜死亡 we are triumphing over sin
我们战胜了罪恶 partaking in the life of death of Christ
参与到了基督的生死 In that sense, the Eucharist
这样说来 圣餐再一次 is just like the Passover Seder again
像是逾越节家宴一样 It is transformative
是可转换的 It is vicarious
是有同感的 We are participating in
我们参与了 somebody else's experience
其他人的经历 and claiming it as our own
然后声称是自己的 Either the Israelite ancestors living in Egypt
不管是埃及的以色列祖先 Or Christ
还是基督 Right, we become one with them
我们成了他们中的一员 and they become one with us
他们成了我们的一员 It's very clear in the Eucharist liturgy
这一点在圣餐仪式中很明显 Is that up on the page? Eucharist liturgy?
打到大屏幕上了吗 圣餐仪式 Eucharist liturgy
圣餐仪式 It's also from the Book of Common Prayer
也是来自公祷书 I don't know the prehistory of this prayer
我不知道这篇祷文的背景 But I'm assuming again
但是我再次假设 It is a traditional prayer
这是传统祷文 Beloved in the Lord
挚爱的主 That's Baptism
这是洗礼 we are addressing the community
我们讲到了圣餐仪式 Our Savior Christ
我们的救世主基督 on the night before he suffered
在他受难的那一夜 suffered, how do you say suffer?
受难 受难的什么意思 That's pascha in Greek
是希腊语复活节的意思 Pashein in Greek, right Passion, right
希腊语里面的Pashein 受难 对吧 That's the suffering of Christ
这就是基督受难 The passion of Christ
基督受难 On the night before he suffered
在他受难的那一夜 Instituted the sacrament
创立了圣礼 We can't talk about that word
没时间讲这个词 That's a complicated word
这是个很复杂的词 But some other time
下次再讲 Institute the sacrament
创立了身体 of his Body and Blood
和血的圣礼 as a sign and pledge of his love
作为他的爱的记号和保证 for the continual remembrance
是为了一直纪念 of the sacrifice of his death
他献出的生命 Remembrance, that phrase is
纪念 这个词 in Luke and in Paul, you remember?
在路加福音和保罗出现过 记得吗 Of the sacrifice of his death
他献出的生命 and for a spiritual sharing in his risen life
在精神上分享他复活的生命 For these holy Mysteries
因为这些神迹 we are made one with Christ
我们和基督成为一 and Christ with us
基督成为我们 We are made one body in him
我们和基督成为一体 and members one of another
也成为彼此的一部分 That's why that's also called Communion
这就是为什么圣餐也叫Communion(共享) Right, through the ritual act of Eucharist
通过圣餐仪式 we become common, we become joined
我们成了共有的 我们连结了起来 We, with all Christians
我们和其他基督徒 one to another in the community
在教会里面连结起来 and we Christians with Christ
然后我们和基督在一起 So it's transformative
所以这是可转换的 in a way which is usually similar
和逾越节家宴 to the way the Seder is transformative
转换的方式很类似 What does that mean, you ask
如果你问这是什么意思 Don't know, but I know it's interesting
不知道 但是我知道这很有趣 In other words
换句话说 it's very hard to figure out
这很难讲清楚 who got what from whom
是谁从谁而来 or they both have a common ritual reflex
或者二者都有基本的仪式反映 here at work
在其中起到作用 Where many rituals have, as their point
很多仪式都有 这样的特点 the attention of transforming the observer
专注于转换遵循者 This you do in Religion 101
这就是宗教课的第一课 Talk about theory of ritual
讨论宗教仪式的理论 So both the Seder and the Christian rituals
所以逾越节家宴和基督教的仪式 of Easter and of Eucharist
复活节和圣餐 are all transformative in one way or another
都会以某种方式转换 which the observer is transformed
遵循者被转换 from your, my mundane self
从你世俗的自己 from my body into something else
从自己身体换成其他东西 or someone else
或者其他人 Okay, that's the end of that trajectory
好了 这是另外一条轨迹的完结 That's the end of my Monday lecture
这是周一课程的结束 Any questions on Monday?
大家对周一的课程有问题吗 Alright, you seem docile today again
好吧 你们今天又变得很顺从 Alright, hopefully you'll wake up
希望你们能醒过来 Okay, everybody gets now to
好了 现在我们开始 Lecture No.2 of this week
讲这周的第二课 Which is the, talk about
我们要讲 one particular text
一篇文章 which is an absolutely amazing text
非常精彩的文章 And again it highlights somebody's
再一次是某个人对于 key issues between Judaism and Christianity
犹太主义和基督主义 between Jews and Christians
犹太人和基督徒之间 on Passover, Christ, and so on
关于逾越节 基督的关键问题的看法 Our hero is Melito of Sardis, right?
我们的英雄是撒狄的墨利托 Somebody who I suspect you've never heard of
我想你们应该从来没听说过 Oh, yes, can you?
是的 麻烦你 It's also on the
也在幻灯片上 Put on the w, we'll use that word
打到大屏幕上 我们会用到这个词 Melito of Sardis, somebody I suspect
撒狄的墨利托 我估计 you never heard of either
你们上这节课之前 until you took this course
从来没听过 But that's alright, you know
但是没关系 Like Justin Martyr
就像殉道士犹斯丁 these people are significant figures
这些人是基督教历史上 in the history of Christianity
很重要的人物 even if they are not household names
就算他们不是家谕户晓的名字 Right, what can I do?
对吧 我也无能为力 Okay, Melito of Sardis
撒狄的墨利托 you have a little biographical info
大屏幕上有他的 up there on the screen
简单介绍 We don't know very much
我们知道的不多 So we are around 180CE, right
可能是在公元180年左右 We are a generation or so
大概比殉道士犹斯丁 after Justin Martyr
晚上一代人 Justin Martyr, we think is around 160
殉道士犹斯丁 我们认为是在公元160年左右 So Melito would be
墨利托应该 approximately a generation later
大约晚上一代人 give me a lot of wiggle room
这样就有了讨论的余地 to the exact chronology we don't have
因为我们没有确切的年代表 Where is Sardis?
撒狄在哪里 I was gonna do a Google Earth thing for a sec
我用谷歌地球确认了一下 Just couldn't get wrong to it, Google, yes
只是不想弄错 谷歌了一下 So Sardis is in western Turkey
撒狄是在西土耳其 Okay? It's an important city in western Turkey
是西土耳其的重要城市 You take one of these tours
当你在黄金年龄退休了 when you retire in your golden years
想要去旅行一番 You will go to Sardis, Afrodisias, Ephesus
你就去撒狄 阿弗洛迪西亚斯 以弗所 These are the big sites
这些都是你在 that you wanna see in western Turkey
土耳其想看到的大城市 that spectacular archeological remains
有壮观的古代残骸 Okay, including a spectacular synagogue
包括一个壮观的犹太教堂 which found in Sardis
在撒狄被发现 but I digress
我跑题了 So back to Melito from Sardis
回到撒狄的墨利托 an important town in western Asian Minor
在小亚细亚一个重要的城市 It is important for our purposes
对我们要讲的东西很重要 because transmitted under its name
因为在城市的名字下面 is an amazing text
是一部奇书 called Peri Pascha
叫做Peri Pascha On the Pascha
在逾越节 This text was only discovered in 1940
文稿直到1940年才被发现 So wasn't that long ago
在稍晚一些时候 that this text was literally dug up
文稿被从埃及的 out of the sands of Egypt
沙土中发掘出来 and reconstructed by scholars
由学者修复 But this is an amazing text
这是一部奇书 And it is, modern scholars agree
而且学者们同意 the best exemplar of Quartodecimanism
是十四主义者的最好范例 Quartodeciman
十四主义者 He was a Quartodeciman
他是十四主义者 What is a Quartodeciman?
什么是十四主义者 Somebody likes 14s
喜欢14的人 Somebody likes 14s
喜欢14的人 Give that girl a star
给这位女同学一颗小星星 Yes exactly, very good, yes
是的 没错 非常好 So a Quartodeciman is a fourteenther
十四主义者就是十四信徒 Right, quarto of course is four
quarto当然就是4 and deciman like decimal, is ten
deciman就像十进制 是10 So a Quartodeciman is a fourteenther
所以十四主义者就是十四信徒 What does that mean?
这是什么意思 A Quartodeciman is one of
十四主义者是很多 the numerous Christian variants
基督徒变体中的一种 about how to calculate Easter
关于如何计算复活节 right?
对吧 This was a vagarious debate
在早期基督教有很多 in the early church
奇特的讨论 about how to calculate Easter
关于如何计算复活节 and even to this very day
一直到今天 Orthodox, Eastern Christians and
东正教徒 东方基督教徒 Western Catholics, Protestants, Christians
西方天主教徒 新教徒 基督徒 don't agree on the calculation of Easter
对复活节的计算方法都存在分歧 On any given year
每一年 Eastern may or may not be the same Sunday
复活节可能都不会是同一个星期日 depending upon whether you are
取决于你追随的是 in the eastern church or the western church
东方的教会还是西方的教会 So in the antiquity, there's even more
在古代 基督徒中间 numerous debates among Christians
存在更多的争论 how to, when to calculate
如何计算 何时 the celebration of Easter
庆祝复活节 So the fourteenthers have a quote that
之所以被称为十四信徒 because they are celebrating
是因为他们庆祝 What's 14, class?
什么14 同学们 Remind me 14
告诉我什么14 14, we seem that number many times
14 我们在过去10天 in the last ten days?
看过这个数字很多次了 What's 14?
什么14 14th day of the first month, Nisan
尼散月的第14天 is the Passover
是逾越节 Slaughter of the paschal lamb
屠宰逾越节羔羊 So the fourteenthers are ones
所以十四信徒是那些 who are saying
声称自己 We observe pascha
遵循复活节的人 We observe pascha
遵循复活节的人 on the 14th of the first spring month
在春天第一个月的第14天 In other words, when the Jews are doing it
换句话说 就是犹太人庆祝的时候 This is one of the main objections
这是对十四信徒的 against the fourteenthers
一个主要异议 You are just like Jews
你们和犹太人一样 You are celebrating the Easter
你们庆祝复活节 Pascha, on the 14th
在第14天庆祝复活节 We have questions, remember?
这是有问题的 记得吗 So we don't wanna do it with the Jews
我们不想和犹太人一起庆祝 That's one of the arguments
这是针对十四信徒的 against the fourteenthers
一个主要异议 which may explain some of
这可以解释墨利托 the anti-Jewish rhetoric in Melito
里面的一些反犹太的言论 that we'll come into in a second
我们随后会讲到 eager to prove that we are not Jews
急切地证明自己不是犹太人 Okay, we will come to that in a second
我们随后会讲到 The key point that is for fourteenthers
对十四信徒来说重点是 Easter is not always on Sunday
复活节不总是在星期日 Because the 14th is the 14th
因为第14天就是第14天 whatever it was
不管是哪天 For historical reasons
因为历史原因 we celebrate it on the 14th
我们在第14天庆祝 whatever day of the week it happens to be
是一周中的那一天都无所谓 It could be on a Sunday
可能会是在星期日 But, you don't know
但是 也不一定 And, next key point
下一个要点 For the fourteenthers like Melito
对于像墨利托这样的十四信徒来说 Easter, or Pascha
复活节 is primarily a celebration of Christ passion
主要是在庆祝基督受难 This pascha again is the Greek word
重复下 pascha(复活节)是个希腊词 from Paschein, which means to suffer
来自Paschein 意思是受难 So we are liturgically
所以我们的礼拜仪式 marking Christ passion
是关于基督受难 Whereas for the rest of the church
而其他教堂 when we celebrate Easter
庆祝复活节 what are we celebrating?
是在庆祝什么 Christ's resurrection
基督复活 That is not a contradiction here
这不是矛盾 Because obviously the passion
因为很明显受难 leads to the resurrection
导致了复活 But there's attention liturgically, right?
但是这里关注的是礼拜仪式 对吧 How we, in our liturgy
在我们的礼拜仪式里面 What does liturgy mean?
礼拜仪式是什么意思 Mode of worship, right
礼拜的方式 Our formal worship
正规的礼拜 Patterns of worship
礼拜的模式 Right, in our prayers and our songs
在我们的祷文和赞歌 and our hymns
赞美诗里面 What are we celebrating?
我们庆祝什么 What are we marking?
我们关注什么 In the church
在教堂里面 when we come to the great church
我们到宏伟的教堂里面 We celebrate on Easter
庆祝复活节 the resurrection of Christ
庆祝基督的复活 which happened on Sunday
在星期日庆祝 That's why Easters are on Sunday
这就是为什么复活节是在星期日 For the fourteenthers, as in this text
对十四信徒来说 在书里面写到 Peri Pascha
在复活节 we are primarily interested in Christ's suffering
我们主要感兴趣的是基督受难 Just like that movie a few years ago, right
就像是几年前的那个电影 The Passion of the Christ
基督受难记 It's all about Christ suffering
就是关于基督受难的 More whipping, more blood, right
多多的打 多多流血 That's what you saw in the movie, right
在电影里面看到的就是这些 So here's we got that here in the text
我们在文献里面看到 celebrating Christ suffering
是在庆祝基督受难 Why do we celebrate Christ suffering, class?
为什么我们要庆祝基督受难 同学们 To anticipate?
想象一下 Christ suffers, and therefore
基督受难 因此 Therefore we don't have to
因此我们不需要受难 Or put it differently
或者换种说法 the greater is Christ suffering
基督受的苦难越多 the greater is the atoning power of his sacrifice
他的牺牲所产生的救赎力量就越大 So, it's not so different with Easter
所以这和复活节没什么不同 but sound exactly Easter, right?
听起来就是复活节 对吧 It's a certain different kind of Easter
这肯定是某种不同的复活节 So this is as far as we can tell are
我们就知道这么多 Melito is one of these Quartodecimans
墨利托是一个十四主义者 Quartodecimans
十四主义者 Even though the word does not
虽然这个词从来没有 appear anywhere in the extent, fragments
在任何片段中出现过 This is our modern scholarly interpretation
这是当代学者根据各种线索 of what's going on
对于发生的事情 based on various clues
的一种解读 which, again, don't need to concern us here
同样我们不需要管这个 But this is representative of
但是这代表了 a different kind of Christianity
不同于你习惯的 from what you are used to
各种形态的基督教义 Both in terms of chronology
同时表现在年表上 and in terms of liturgical focus
和在关注的礼拜仪式上 Okay? General questions on this?
好了 有问题要问吗 Or we can look at some specific
然后我们就可以看看 passages and features of Melito of Sardis
具体的撒狄的墨利托的段落和特点 No, okay
没有 好吧 I'll take that presumably as you agree with me
我假设你们都同意我的观点 Okay, major theme as opposed to
或者相反的一种情况 you are all asleep
你们都睡着了 Which is the alternative
这是另外一种情况 So I won't do that
我不会问的 So, Melito of Sardis
撒狄的墨利托 Major themes of Melito of Sardis
撒狄的墨利托的主要主题 Peri Pascha
在逾越节 I uploaded the text for you, by the way
顺便说下我把文档上传到了 to the course page on the readings
学校的阅读页面上 So if you don't want to click all the way
如果你们不想到校外 to that external source
去找相关的资源 you can stay right here in the Harvard website
可以直接在哈佛的网站上找到 if you feel more comfortable
如果你们觉得更方便 Okay, Jesus is the paschal sacrifice
耶稣是逾越节祭品 Jesus is, Christ is the paschal lamb
耶稣 基督是逾越节羔羊 Well, that motif we have already seen
我们已经见过了这个母题 That comes from
这来自 Gospel of John
约翰福音 The probably most famously, yes
可能是最有名的 是吧 Christ is the paschal lamb
基督是逾越节羔羊 Right, the fourteenth is the day on which
第14天是基督 Christ is slaughtered
被杀害的那一天 Cos that's the day on which
因为这一天是 the paschal lamb is slaughtered, okay?
屠宰逾越节羔羊的日子 对吧 We've seen that already, yes?
我们已经见过的 是吧 You won't do that, right?
你们不肯配合 是吧 Yes
是的 I worry sometimes
有些时候我很担心 Okay, so
好吧 所以 Justin has the same idea, too
犹斯丁也有同样的想法 I gave you a reference to it
我在最后的笔记上 in the last lecture notes
给了大家一些参考文献 I didn't talk about it
我没有讲这个 But Justin has an even more remarkable text
犹斯丁有更加不同寻常的文章 which has to say
文章中说 that the paschal lamb put on the spit
逾越节羔羊放到烤肉叉上面 After the lamb is slaughtered
在羔羊被屠宰以后 The carcass is put on the spit
尸体被放到烤肉叉上 and roast as a whole, right?
然后整个烤熟 对吧 Justin says that the image of
犹斯丁说逾越节羔羊 the paschal lamb on the spit
在烤肉叉上的样子 looks like Christ on the cross
看起来像是在十字架上的基督 That strings my imagination, I admit
我承认这扩展了我的想象力 But anyway, I read an article
总之我读了这篇文章 People sometimes would
有些人会 be doubtful of diagrams
怀疑这一点 trying to figure out
想要弄清楚 how the human being on the cross
人在十字架上怎么和 looks like a lamb on the spit
羊羔是烤肉叉上一样 Anyway, maybe it's meant to be metaphorical
总之 也许这是一种比喻 Anyway before Justin
总之在犹斯丁之前 he says the one evokes the other
他说一件事导致了另外一件事 Or again, it's a type
或者说 这是个类型 We are about to see it in one second
我们会马上讲到 Right, it's a type
这是类型 The slaughtered lamb, paschal lamb
屠宰的羔羊 逾越节羔羊 is a type for, paradigm of
是十字架上的基督的 model of, archetype for
一个类型 一个范例 Christ on the cross
一个样式 一个原型 That is what you have
这是整篇文章 throughout this whole text
里面都提到的观点 from one end to the other
从头到尾 Here is a wonderful passage
这一段很优美 shared from passage 103
是第103段 I am your forgiveness
我是你的宽容之心 I am the Pascha of salvation
我是复活节的救赎 I am the lamb slaughtered for you
我是为你而被屠杀的羔羊 I am your ransom, I am your life
我是你的赎金 我是你的生命 I am your resurrection, I am your light
我是你的复活 我是你的光 I am your salvation, I am your king
我是你的拯救 我是你的王 There's certain flavor to this style
这种风格很有味道 Either you like it, I do
不管你们喜不喜欢 我喜欢 Or you find it very obnoxious
或者你可能觉得很讨厌 and unbelievably repetitive
重复个没完没了 and utterly annoying
完全令人讨厌 But that's just a matter of taste
但是这只是关乎品味 Okay, that's the main point
好了 这是个要点 Next point, Exodus 12
下一点 出埃及记第12章 The Peri Pascha as we have it
在逾越节一书 seems to be fundamentally
基本上是一种 an extended meditation
扩展的冥想 Christian meditation on Exodus 12
基督徒对出埃及记第12章的冥想 Same paragraph I asked you
我上周让你们读的 to read for last week
也正是这一章 That's the same paragraph
是同一章 Melito is reading as a Christian
墨利托是以基督徒的身份在读 And as a Christian
作为基督徒 Melito is taking Exodus 12
墨利托把出埃及记第12章 as his departure point
作为他的出发点 And when we Christians read Exodus 12
当我们基督徒读到出埃及记第12章的时候 What do we see?
看到的是什么 Answer, we see Christ
答案是 我们看到了基督 That's what we see
这就是我们看到的 So Exodus 12 is the focal point of the article
出埃及记第12章是文章的焦点 And it tells you specifically
而且特别告诉你了 this theory of typology
类型学的理论 some remarkable paragraphs
一些不同寻常的段落 which I'm going to
我打算 Well, now we want to brief excerpts here
我们会在这里简单看下节选 which I gave you on your handout
我在大家的讲义上给出了 Right, which he uses the word
他用了这个词 This is all a type, he says
这都是类型 他说 Or typology
或者类型学 Remember we discussed this word
记得几周前我们就 weeks ago already
讨论过这个词吧 So he says the text talks about
他说关于屠杀 the slaughtering of the lamb
逾越节羔羊的段落 But we know that it means, or is fulfilled
但是我们知道它的含义 或者说完成了 or is a model, or is an archetype
是一个类型 一个原型 is a forerunner
一个先兆 for what's going to come later
是随后而来的 which is the slaughter of Christ, the lamb
对基督 这只羊羔的处决 So here we have a few passages
这里我给大家节选的 which I excerpted for you
有几个段落 So in paragraph, stanza 44
第44诗节 At one time
曾经 the slaughter of sheep was valuable
屠杀羊是有意义的 now it is without value
现在却毫无意义 because of the life of the Lord
因为主的生命 The death of sheep once was valuable
死去的羊曾经是有意义的 now it is without value because of
现在却因为主的救赎 the salvation of the Lord
而毫无意义 The blood of sheep once was valuable
羊的血曾经是有意义的 But now it is without value
现在却因为主的精神 because of the spirit of the Lord
而变得毫无意义 The silent lamb, the temple, Jerusalem
沉默的羔羊 神庙 耶路撒冷 Right, all these things have been fulfilled
所有这些都被履行了 And thereby, Melito suggests, cancelled
因此 墨利托认为 取消了 Or exhausted
或者耗尽了 Or any word image to you
或者任何让你有画面感的词 So it was like the battery
就像是电池 You know, the battery is run out
电池没电了 It once had power, now it has no power
曾经有能量 现在没有了 Cos it's been exhausted
因为已经耗尽了 Or all its energy has
或者所有的能量 been transferred to Christ
都转移到了基督身上 Okay, some of the
墨利托 most interesting lines in Melito
一些最有趣的段落 are Christ, God, Son, and lamb
是关于基督 上帝 圣子 羔羊 We'll be talking in the next couple of weeks
我们会在接下来的几周讲这些 until we get to the last session of rituals
一直到最后关于仪式的部分 Starting next week
下周开始 we'll be doing theology
我们会讲神学理论 Between the Jews and Christians
犹太人和基督徒之间 debating theology based on scripture
基于圣经的神学辩论 Right, so one of the most contentious issues
在基督教历史上最有争议性的 in the history of Christianity
一个问题 of course, is
当然就是 How we understand relationship between
我们怎么理解上帝圣父 God the father
上帝和基督 God to Christ
之间的关系 Father, son, that's right, metaphor
圣父 圣子 还有比喻的 We have metaphorical God and Lord
比喻性的上帝和主 One person, two persons, three persons
一个人 两个人 三个人 Okay, this is one of the most
这是基督教历史上 contentious issues in the history of Christianity
最具争议性的问题 Melito is living before those
墨利托要早于 what are called Christological controversies
我们所说的基督论大辩论的年代 which erupt primarily with
是在公元四世纪 virtuosity in the fourth century
开始百家争鸣 He's living in the second
他生活在公元二世纪 So he can use all kinds of language
所以他可以使用各种说法 images and metaphors
图像和比喻 and not worry whether or not
完全不用担心 he's particularly huing to the
他是不是特别倾向于 right official party line
官方的言辞 about how to understand
关于如何理解 relationship between Christ and God
基督和上帝的关系 So he's got a series of
他有一系列的 really remarkable passages
非常出彩的段落 So he says Christ was all things
他说基督是所有这些 Christ is the Father
基督是圣父 Christ is the Son
基督是圣子 Christ is the Logos
基督是道 as we'll discuss next week
我们会在下周讲到 or the week after
或者大下周 Logos is the power of reason
道是道理的力量 the power of speech
言语的力量 Or when I say the Mind of God
或者可以说是上帝的心智 Capital M, is the logos
大写的M 道 Often mistranslated word
常常被误解成是词 does not mean word
不是词的意思 It means speech, reason
是说言语 原因 So Christ is the Father
所以基督是圣父 Christ is the Son, Christ is the Logos
基督是圣子 基督是道 Christ is the Lamb, Christ is God
基督是羔羊 基督是上帝 Christ is Man, right
基督是人 and if you object
如果你反对说 How can Christ be all these things
基督怎么能同时 at the same time?
是这些东西呢 Well, that's because
那是因为 Melito is a magic theologian
墨利托是神叨叨的神学家 I don't have to worry about it
我不需要担心这个 Melito would say in reply
墨利托会这样回答 So Christ is man, etc., etc.
基督是人 等等 Christ is present on the Lord
基督是上帝的化身 It is paragraph stanza 66
在第66诗节 It's on next page, also up there
在下一页 也在大屏幕上 stanza 66 where you have
在第66诗节 the most remarkable imagery
有一个出众的意象 God put on a suffering one
上帝穿上受难者之衣 and comes forth a man
就变成了人 So here is God
这里的上帝 and God puts on Jesus as if
上帝穿上基督 Jesus were a garment or a cloak
基督就是衣服或者斗篷 And thereby God becomes human
这样上帝就成了人 in order to suffer on the cross
好在十字架上受难 This is a standard theological dilemma
这是标准的神学窘境 If Christ is God
如果基督是上帝 then why is Christ suffering
为什么基督会受难 Isn't suffering a sign of humanity?
受难不是人类的一个标志吗 How does God suffer?
上帝怎么会受难 Well, okay, this is a
这些基督教神学 standard problem in Christian theology
的一个标准问题 where the official answer
官方的答案 as it emerges from the Greek church
来自希腊教堂 Christ is both fully God and fully human
基督同时是完全神也是完整人 at the same time
同时 Okay, we'll discuss this
我们会讨论这个 That's very deep waters
这是很深奥的问题 We'll discuss this
我们会讨论 Anyway, so here is stanza 66
总之 在第66诗节 God put on a suffering one
上帝穿上受难者之衣 and comes forth a man
就变成了人 This is the one who came
他可为了那些 from heaven to earth
受难者而在 for the sake of the one who suffers
天堂与地狱之间穿行 I don't understand how to paraphrase
我不知道应该怎么样转述 this exact relationship
这一段中 between God and Father
上帝和圣父之间 and God and Son in this paragraph
上帝和圣子之间确切的关系 Melito was using this imagery
墨利托用了 of putting on the garment
穿衣服的这种比喻 I'm not sure what to do with it exactly
我不知道应该怎么解释 And has clothed itself
他通过处女的子宫 with that very one through
为自己穿上了 the womb of a virgin
受难者之衣 and having come forth as human
就成为了人 accepted the sufferings of the sufferer
通过他的身体接受了 through his body
受难者的苦难 which was capable of suffering
从此能够受难 And he destroyed those
然后他用他的精神 human sufferings by his spirit
打破了人类的苦难 which is incapable of dying
从此不再死去 He killed death
他战胜了死亡 which had put men to death
不再让人死去 Hmmm, I love it
恩 我喜欢这段 Not sure exactly what this means
不太确定在神学上来说 in theological terms
这是什么意思 But liturgically, this is powerful stuff, right
但是作为礼拜仪式 是很有力量的 对吧 In which he relishes the paradox
他乐于看到悖论 He plays with the paradox
他与悖论周旋 God, man, death
上帝 人 死亡 You know, death thou shalt die
死亡将会消失 that sort of thing, right
这种东西 So, anyway, I just observe for the moment
总之 我说的只是这段 Paragraph 66
第66段 That middle participle in Greek, right?
希腊语中间的分词 This is the one who came
这就是来的那个人 or has come
或者已经来了 In Greek it's aphikomenos
希腊语是aphikomenos Which sure sounds like a word
听起来很像一个词 we discussed last week
我们上周讲过的 afiqoman
Hmmm, afiqoman also
嗯 afiqoman严格说 is not a technical Greek word
其实也不是希腊语单词 It's just a regular old Greek
只是一般的古希腊语 middle participle, participle from afiqomasnie
的中间分词而来 But nonetheless, there's that word
但是不管怎么样 就是这个词 and sure looks, resonates
肯定看起来 有共鸣 sounds like something else
听起来像是另一个词 Don't know what to do with that
不知道应该怎么样理解 Hopefully I'll come back to that at the end
希望在最后还有时间讲一下 Okay, now we get to the
好了 接下来我们讲 to be honest, the ugly part
老实说 是丑陋的部分 So, let's take out the logic of it
我们先来把逻辑搞清楚 Christ is the paschal lamb
基督是逾越节羔羊 Who slaughters the paschal lamb, class?
谁屠宰了逾越节羔羊 同学们 Israelites
以色列人 It's a command from Exodus
来自出埃及记的训诫 Who slaughtered Christ the paschal lamb?
谁杀害了基督 也就是逾越节羔羊 That's right
没错 The logic is inescapable
逻辑上是无法辩解的 It's the Jews
是犹太人 Or Israel, speaking theologically
神学用语是以色列人 Jews speaking contemptuously, right
犹太人是轻蔑的说法 对吧 They are responsible for
他们要为 the slaughter of the paschal lamb
屠杀了逾越节羔羊负责 Again, Melito, like Justin
墨利托和犹斯丁一样 conveniently omits the Romans
随随便便就忽略了罗马人 Right? You would never know that
你不会知道 they are Romans in charge of Roman Palestina
是罗马人统治着罗马巴勒斯坦 You would never know that
你不会知道 Pontius Pilate is the governor
本丢彼拉多是总督 And that nothing happens without
没有罗马官方的同意 the official consent of the Romans
一切都不会发生 And that is Roman soldiers who do the deed
是罗马士兵执行了死刑 You will never know that from Melito
光看墨利托的文章你不会知道这些 Cos Melito is not a lecture in history
因为墨利托不是历史讲座 Melito is a statement of Christian theology
墨利托表述的是基督教神学 And he, from Melito, as for Justin
墨利托和犹斯丁一样 There is absolutely no hesitation
完全没有犹豫 or any doubt about
或者任何怀疑 who bears moral responsibility
谁要承担道德责任 And the answer of course, is the Jews
答案当然是 犹太人 And here we have a
接下来是一个 particularly remarkable set of paragraphs
特别值得注意的段落 in paragraph 74 to 77
第74段到77段 where he argues that
他认为 Israel, on the one hand
以色列人一方面 is doing what was necessary to do
做了必须要做的事情 On the other hand
另一方面 Israel bears moral responsibility
以色列人要承担道德责任 This is a well known conundrum
这是著名的难题 Witty Jew replies to Christian
机智的犹太人回应基督徒 Well, yeah, we kills Christ
是的 我们杀了基督 But isn't that what you wanted?
但是这不正是你想要的吗 How would you atone for your sins
如果没有人杀掉基督 if nobody killed Christ?
你们怎么赎罪 You need Christ a suffering die
你们需要基督受难死去 This is how you bring
这样才能 atonement to the world
有机会赎罪 Without that, there will be no atonement
如果不是这样 就没有机会赎罪 So you should be thankful
所以你应该感谢我们 So why are you angry at me for killing Christ?
所以为什么你要怪我杀了基督 I'm doing what had to happen
根据你们自己的神学 according to your own theology
我做了必须要做的事情 That's what the witty Jew says to the Christian
这就是机智的犹太人对基督徒的回应 This is not a new argument, right?
这不是一个新论据 对吧 This is an argument Melito is aware of
这种回应墨利托知道 and so is Justin
犹斯丁也知道 in one paragraph
同一个段落里面 Look at the end of this paragraph
看这段的最后 Same argument in Justin Dialogue 95
犹斯丁对话集第95篇用的同样的论据 We'll look it up
我们会讲到 It's the same argument
是同样的论点 So here is Melito's response to that argument
接下来是墨利托对此的回应 Why O Israel did you do
为什么你们以色列人 this strange injustice?
做出这种公正的裁决 You dishonored the one
你们让尊敬你们的 who had honored you
那些人蒙羞 You held in contempt
你们轻视了 the one who held you in esteem
那些尊敬你们的人 You denied the one
你们拒绝了 who publicly acknowledged you
那些公开认可你们的人 blablabla
等等等 Hast it not been written for your benefit
就算没有使你们受益 Nevertheless, Israel admits
总之 以色列人承认 Paragraph 74
第74段 I killed the Lord! Why?
我杀了主 为什么 Because it was necessary for him to die
因为他的死是必须的 As you Christians themselves say
就像你们基督徒自己说的 Necessary for him to die
他的死是必须的 That's why we killed him
所以我们才杀了他 You have deceived yourself, O Israel
你们欺骗了自己 以色列人 rationalizing thus about the death of the Lord
为杀了主而找借口 It was necessary for him to suffer, yes
他的受难是必须的 是的 But not by you
但是不应该是你们 Necessary for him to be dishonored
他蒙羞的必须的 But not by you
但是不应该是你们 Necessary for him to be judged
他应该被审判 But not by you
但是不应该是你们 Necessary for him to be crucified
他应该被处决 But not by you
但是不应该是你们 Nor by your right hand
不应该以你们之手 O Israel, you ought to have
以色列人 你们应该 cried aloud to God
对上帝痛哭 with his voice, O Lord
以他之声 我主 if it was necessary
如果必须 for your son to suffer
让你子受难 and this be your will
这也是你的意愿 let him suffer indeed
就让他受难 but not at my hands
但是不要以我之手 Let him be judged by the uncircumcised
让他被那些异邦人审判 Let him be crucified by
让他被那些残暴的 the tyrannical right hand
异教徒处决 not by mine
但是不是被我 In other words, Israel should have said
换句话说 以色列人应该说 Jesus, why should go to Norway?
耶稣 为什么不去挪威 And let the Norwegians crucify you
让挪威人处决你 But Israel does not say that
但是以色列人没有这样说 Israel said, we'll do it
以色列人说 我们来做 And that's why Israel, Jews
这就是为什么以色列人 犹太人 bear the moral blame
承担了道德谴责 But the way, Jews is not the language of Melito
顺便说下 墨利托用的不是犹太人这个词 He's always thinking biblically
他一直使用的圣经思维 So it's Israel, alright
所以是以色列人 对吧 Israel bears the blame
以色列人承担 for the crucifixion
处决耶稣的谴责 because of their willingness to accept
因为他们想要去承担 moral responsibility for the act
因此而产生的道德责任 And that is a long and complicated
这是希伯来圣经里面 theological history behind this about
一段很长很复杂的 from the Hebrew Bible
神学历史 about how God uses foreign nations
关于上帝怎么样用异邦人 in order to persecute Israel
来残害以色列人 So God uses Babylonians to destroy the Temple
上帝用巴比伦人毁灭了神庙 But then what's God going to do?
然后上帝干了什么 He's gonna turn around
他回过头来 and destroy the Babylonians
毁灭了巴比伦人 God's gonna use the Assyrians
上帝用亚述人 to punish the Israelites
惩罚以色列人 What does he do after the
在那以后他干了什么 Assyrians punish the Israelites?
亚述人惩罚了以色列人之后 He punishes the Assyrians
上帝惩罚了亚述人 And if you object there's some illogic to this
如果你反对说这些不合逻辑 Well, yeah, there is some illogic to this
是的 是有些不合逻辑 But there is a long history
但是这就说来话长 of this kind of speculations
有各种各样的猜测 about how God uses
关于上帝如何 how people play a role in the script
人们怎么样在上帝写下的脚本里面 written out by God
扮演特定角色 controlling human events
控制人类的行为 So here Israel is scripted
以色列人被写了进去 Israel is doing what he needs to do
以色列人做了需要做的事情 Israel kills Christ
以色列人杀了基督 But nonetheless, somehow
尽管如此 it bears the moral responsibility for the deed
以色列人确实承担了道德责任 Which one Melito is talking about
这就是墨利托的观点 Melito then reaches the next
墨利托接下来延伸了 logical conclusion
逻辑上的推论 Israel has slaughtered this paschal lamb
以色列人屠杀了逾越节羔羊 Israel has slaughtered Christ
以色列人杀害了基督 Christ is God
基督是上帝 Christ is Son of God
基督是上帝之子 Christ is Lord
基督是主 Therefore, Israel has slaughtered God
因此 以色列人杀害了上帝 That idea appears here for the first time
在基督教整个历史中这种想法 in history of Christendom
是第一次出现 the charge of deicide
杀神之罪 That Israel has slaughtered God
以色列人杀害了上帝 And if you object
如果你反对说 How is this logically possible
这在逻辑上怎么可能 It is God, how can you slaughter God?
这是上帝 你怎么能杀害上帝 Well, once again
再说一次 Logic is not the right line of inquiry here
这里的质疑不能按照逻辑来 Not the right mode of analysis
逻辑不是分析的正确模式 This is liturgy
这是祈祷文 This is theology, this is poetry
这是神学 这是史诗 So Melito has been called
所以墨利托被称为 the poet of deicide
杀神诗人 The one who hung the earth in space
那个被吊在空中的 is himself hanged
是他自己被绞死 Hanged is another way of saying crucified
绞死是处决的另外一种说法 The one who fixed the heavens in place
那个被固定在空中的 is himself impaled
是他自己被穿刺 the one who firmly fixed all things
那个坚定要解决所有的事情的 is himself firmly fixed to the tree
是他自己被钉在树上 The Lord is insulted
主被凌辱了 God has been murdered
上帝被谋杀了 the King of Israel has been destroyed
以色列之王被上帝之手 by the right hand of God
而毁灭了 Now, of course
当然 when you use this kind of language
当你在21世纪的早期 in the early 21st century
提出这些说法 One cannot forget, right
会让大家印象深刻 the events of the 20th
20世纪的事情 So I'll make it very clear
我要说清楚 I am not suggesting that Melito
我不是想说墨利托 Once the pack of Jews in boxcars
要把犹太人推上货车车厢 are sent them to Auschwitz
送到奥斯维辛集中营去 But I'm suggesting what Melito is saying
但是我认为墨利托说的是 of course is that
当然是因为 with the arrival of Christ
基督的到来 with the advent of Christianity
随之出现的基督教 with the atoning power of Christ
随之而来的基督赎罪的力量 Judaism is dead
犹太教已死 Judaism no longer has
犹太教没有了 any theological meaning
神学上的意义 or theological purpose
或者神学上的目的 Israel has rejected Christ
以色列人拒绝了基督 God has rejected Israel
上帝拒绝了以色列人 That's how we argue
这就是我们认为 what Melito's point is
墨利托的观点 For all I know
据我所知 he's very nice and friendly to Jews
他对在撒狄的街上 he met on the street in Sardis
认识的犹太人非常友好 Right, but for him
但是对他来说 This is all a theological argument
这是神学上的讨论 This is all a Roman theology
这是罗马神学 not a Roman sociology
不是罗马社会学 The Roman theology, Israel lies dead
罗马神学认为 以色列人已死 that Israel has rejected God
以色列人拒绝了上帝 God has rejected Israel
上帝拒绝了以色列人 And consequently
因此 Israel has now been emptied
以色列人所有的 of all theological value
神学价值都被清空了 Which is what we saw earlier
这和我们之前读 by this typology in Exodus
出埃及记第12章 reading of Exodus 12
看到的神学是一样的 The paschal lamb is fulfilled
逾越节羔羊的使命完成了 It's over, it's done, nothing left
完了 结束了 没有了 That what I would read Melito of Sardis
这就是我对撒狄的墨利托的看法 If you say, well Shaye
你如果你说 Shaye教授 You are just trying to be ecumenical
你只是想要尽量 and politically correct as you can
满足普遍性和政治正确 with extraordinary difficult text
来解释这段非常难懂的文本 Well, maybe, maybe
也许吧 也许 But I would argue that's the
但是我要争论 playing implication of what Melito is doing
这正暗示了墨利托的做法 and should not be read
不要被理解成 in the light of the Holocaust
是大屠杀的做法 But on this point, I admit
在这点上 我承认 Let people decide as they wish
应该让大家自己决定 If you are interested in this point
如果你对这方面感兴趣 you can read a book written by my cousin
可以读读我的堂兄写的书 Jeremy Cohen
He's my cousin, not with father Cohen
他是我堂兄 他父亲不姓Cohen But through his mother
这是他母亲的姓 his mother, Niomy Weiner Cohen
他的母亲 Niomy Weiner Cohen who is my second cousin, right
是我第二个堂兄 It's a book called Christ Killers
书名叫做基督杀手 Right, in which he gave history of this motif
他讲的关于犹太人声称自己 of Jews says killers of Christ
杀死了基督这一历史的母题 has a whole chapter on Melito
有一章关于墨利托的 And he and I independently
他和我独立 hit upon the same interpretation
得出了同样的解读 But he published the first
但是他先出版了 So this is cousin Jeremy Cohen
如果你对这个母题感兴趣 if you are interested on this motif
可以读读我的堂兄Jeremy Cohen的书 Okay, so Melito of Sardis
好了 撒狄的墨利托 a very rich and interesting text
非常丰富有趣的文献 Definitely something one can chew on
肯定有很多东西可以消化 Okay, questions?
好了 有问题吗 Objections? Arguments?
异议 争论 To say that we are swimming
这些都是 in deep waters, class
很深奥的内容 同学们 is an understatement, yes?
是保守的说法 是吧 You understand that, yes?
你们明白这点 对吧 Okay, next heading in the handout
讲义上的下一个标题 A Christian paschal Haggadah? Question mark
基督教复活节哈加达 问号 One excited things about this text in Melito
关于墨利托很激动人心的一件事情是 one of these we rediscovered in 1940
在1940年文献被重新发现 and published in 1940
并且出版 Scholars immediately read it
学者们马上看了 and said, this is clearly a liturgical text
然后说 这很明显是关于礼拜仪式的 It seems to be setting
看起来是一些设定 It seems to be a group setting of some kind
看起来是对一些东西整组的设定 What are these Christians doing
这些基督徒是 reading and meditating on Exodus 12?
如何阅读并冥思出埃及记第12章的 Gee, I know another text
天啊 我知道另外一部文献 that is focused on the reading
也是专注于阅读 and meditating Exodus 12
冥思出埃及记第12章的 is the Haggadah, is the rabbinic Seder
就是哈加达 拉比逾越节家宴 Maybe we have here Melito
也许墨利托 Something like a Christian Seder
就是基督教的逾越节家宴 And this text is the Christian Haggadah
这就是基督教的哈加达 This idea whereas came out very quickly
这种想法在19世纪40年代很快就 in the 1940s
出现了 and was developed into some articles
然后在19世纪60年代 in the 1960s
有了一些文章 So, what is the argument
关于这是基督教的哈加达 that this is a Christian Haggadah
基督教的逾越节家宴 for a Christian Seder?
是如何争论的呢 And if so, this is really interesting
如果真是这样 那就太有趣了 We have pro and con
我们有正反两面 Pro and con
赞成和反对 On the pro side
赞成的 This appears to be liturgical text
这很明显是礼拜仪式文献 as we said, you read Exodus 12
我们说过 读读出埃及记第12章 I've already said that too
这句我也说过 Next bullet point
下一个要点 We've followed the Mishnaic prescription
我们遵循密西拿的指示 Remember to begin with shame
还记得吗 以羞愧开始 and end with honor
以荣耀结束 That's the trajectory of the story of Passover
这是逾越节故事的轨迹 From slavery to freedom
从为奴到被释放 From shame to honor
从羞愧到荣耀 Well, that's what Melito is doing
这就是墨利托的做法 Exactly the same thing
完全一样的 He talks about from Adam's fall
从亚当的堕落开始 From the arrival of sin
从罪恶的到来开始 to Christ death and atonement for sin
到基督死去和赎罪 that's the trajectory of Melito's narrative
这是墨利托叙事的轨迹 Well, that's the same trajectory
这是同一条轨迹 Paragraph 68 sounds like
第68段听起来 a passage from the Mishnah
像是一个密西拿的段落 This is the one who delivered us
他就是那个把我们从为奴 from slavery into freedom
到自由身解放出来的人 Darkness to light, darkness to light
从黑暗到光明 黑暗到光明 Tyranny to eternal kingdom
暴政到永恒的国度 Made us new priesthood
给了我们新祭司 a special people forever
永远特殊的人群 sounds just like the Mishnah
听起来就像是密西拿 You brought us forth from bondage Into freedom
你带领我们从为奴到自由 Sorrow to joy
悲伤到喜乐 Mourning into festivity
哀痛到欢庆 Darkness to light
黑暗到光明 and from servitude into redemption
从奴役到被救赎 Gee, sure sounds like
天啊 听起来像是 I don't know who copy what from whom
我不知道谁抄了谁 But they seems to be
但是看起来 in the same rhetorical world here
用的是同样的词句 Next, we have this paragraph that
继续 这一段里面 sound like adverted dayyenu
听起来像是dayyenu We didn't talk about dayyenu
我们没有讲过dayyenu Cos dayyenu is not in the Mishnah
因为密西拿里面没有dayyenu Dayyenu is an undated
dayyenu是无法确认日期 and virtually updatable prayer
事实上不知道日期的祷文 that wind up somewhere
最后不知道怎么的 sneaking into the Haggadah
就到了哈加达里面 If you ever go to a Passover Seder
如果你参加过逾越节家宴 everybody loves dayyenu
所有人都喜欢dayyenu because all kids can sing it
因为每一个孩子都会唱 Day-day-yenu, day-day-yenu
Day-day-yenu, dayyenu, dayyenu, dayyenu
So, that's why everybody likes to sing
这就是为什么所有人都喜欢唱 That's why it's very popular
这就是为什么很流行 But interestingly, the logic of the prayer
但是有趣的是 这篇祷文的逻辑 is a little odd, right
有一些奇怪 In which the redemption story from Egypt
从埃及被救赎的故事 is very broken down into different pieces
被分成了不同的几块 And each little piece, we say
每一块 我要说 God, that wouldn't be enough
天啊 这还不够 how about you stop right here
怎么就在这里停了 that wouldn't be enough
这还不够 Logically makes no sense
逻辑上没道理 what would make it enough
把整个故事分开 to spit the right scene
讲到中间 and brings it to middle
就停下来了 and then stop right there
这怎么能够呢 Well, that will not be very effective
这不是很有效率的方法 So there is no logic to it
所以这没有逻辑 It's liturgy, it's liturgy
这是祷告文 祷告文 Saying that how great is the power of God
是在说上帝的力量有多么伟大 and how great is that redemptive act
救赎的行为是有多伟大 It's a series of miracles
是一系列的神迹 not one miracle
不是一个神迹 It's a series of miracles
是一系列的神迹 Right one act of redemptive, one power
一次救赎 一次神力展现 Act of redemptive power after another
一次救赎的神力 一个接一个 Well, there's a paragraph in
在墨利托里面有一段 Melito which sounds just like
很像是另外 an averted dayyenu
一个版本的dayyenu where dayyenu the Jews are saying
dayyenu里面犹太人说 There wouldn't have been enough for us
这对我们来说还不够 And Melito was saying precisely the opposite
墨利托说的刚好相反 How about this, how about that
这样怎么样 那样怎么样 How about this, how about that?
这样怎么样 那样怎么样 Which he has a similar kind of list
有一个类似的列表 Okay, you can read it right here
你们可以现在就 on the handout
看看讲义 So there is a mysterious dayyenu connection
这里有神秘的dayyenu联系 There is an another paragraph connection
还有另外一个段落有联系 We have liturgical setting
我们有礼拜仪式设定 And last but not least is that
还有一样是 mysterious aphikomenos
神秘的aphikomenos The word that appears twice in Melito
这个词在墨利托里面出现了两次 to describe Christ
用来描述基督 Christ is the one who has come
基督是随aphikomenos after aphikomenos
之后来的 Boy, I wish I could get to the bottom of that
天啊 我真希望能弄个水落石出 to figure out what's going on here
弄清楚这是什么意思 Is it just a casual coincidence?
这只是一个偶然的巧合 Is it just usually a ray or roll
这是常见的拼写相近 Greek middle participle?
希腊语中间分词 Middle Greek is this active
古希腊语是主动语态 Greek is also passive
希腊语有被动语态 and something called middle
还有中间语态 So it's a middle participle
所以这是中间分词 It's probably normal?
这可能是很普通的 It's just a regular old Greek word
只是一个平常的古希腊词 you will learn it in Greek 101
会在希腊语第一课学到 It's just very nothing fancy schmancy?
没什么神奇的东西 And just sounds like afikomen
听起来像是afikomen but has nothing to do with it
但是却毫无关联 Or, maybe it does
或者 可能有关联 Aphikomenos means the coming one
Aphikomenos的意思是到来 And that's what we Jews wait for
这就是我们犹太人等待的 at the end of the Seder
在逾越节家宴的最后 Is the redeemer
是救世主 The one who is coming
就要来了 But has not yet come
但是还没来 I'm really confused
这很令人迷惑 Anyway, so this is tantalizing I would say
总之 我会说这是在调戏人 Teasing
戏弄 maybe there's some connection here
也许会有一些联系 or maybe not
或者没有 That's the pro argument
这是赞成方的看法 Con argument
反对方看法 And I think the con, the negatives have it
在我脑中有反面的 in my mind
负面的东西 It's a liturgical text, yes
这是礼拜仪式文本 是的 It's a clearly designed, focusing on scripture
这很明显是有计划的关注与圣经的 Focusing on the Exodus from Egypt
关于出埃及的 Focusing on the redemption story
关注与救赎的故事的 Prefiguring Christian redemption
预示着基督教的救赎 That's all clear
这都很清楚 Does that mean, therefore
那么这是否意味着 It is a Christian Seder
这是基督教逾越节家宴 and this is the Christian Haggadah text
这是基督教逾越节家宴的 for a Christian Seder?
哈加达呢 I, Shaye Cohen, am going to say
我 Shaye Cohen 会说 No, cos I don't see the smoking gun
不 因为我没有看到确凿证据 Or in this case
或者在本案中 I don't see the smoking bitter herbs
没有看到冒烟的苦草 So there is no reference anywhere in the text too
而且文献里面也没有提到 Matzah, to bread, to wine, bitter herbs
无酵饼 面包 酒 苦草 except in so far as the
除此之外 the Israelites themselves celebrating Passover
以色列人自己庆祝逾越节 in Exodus 12 mentions bitter herbs
在出埃及记第12章提到的苦草 But as far as we are having bitter herbs
但是既然我们有苦草 That's nowhere to be found
却完全没有找到 and surely, in a text like this
肯定在这样的文献里面 full of bitterness about the Israelites
都是以色列人受苦的故事 I would expect to see bitter herbs everywhere
我会想要看到时不时提到苦草 No reference to Eucharist
没有提到圣餐 No reference to Words of Institution
没有提到最后的晚餐的 of Christ at Last Supper
祝圣祷文 And indeed, there was no Last Supper
而且也没有最后的晚餐 There is no reference to the Last Supper
任何地方都没有提到 anywhere in the text
最后的晚餐 So I say, if this is a Christian liturgical text
所以我说如果这是基督教的礼拜仪式 It is an odd one indeed
这真的是很奇怪的一个 which leaves out all the hallmarks
完全没有提到任何基督教 of Christian liturgy
礼拜仪式的印记 Therefore, I want to say
因此我会说 It's not a Christian Seder
这不是基督教逾越节家宴 It's not a Christian Haggadah
这不是基督教哈加达 Instead, it's a wonderfully rich passage
反之 这是优美的内容丰富的 of Christian meditation on Exodus 12
基督徒对于出埃及记第12章的冥思 showing how Exodus 12, right
展示了出埃及记第12章 that most Jewish passages
那个最犹太的章节 full of rituals and instructions
充斥着仪式和指示 of God to Moses to the Israelites
从上帝到摩西到以色列人 is the one that at the same time
同时也是意义深远的 a profound Christian passage
基督教的章节 When read through the mirror
是一面镜子 Through the lenses of the suffering
反映出基督的受难 death, resurrection of Christ
死亡和复活 which is what we see in Melito
这就是我们在墨利托看到的 So I'm going to say
我会说 In spite of those intriguing parallels
尽管有这些和逾越节哈加达 connections with the Passover Haggadah
相关联的有趣的类似 and Mishnah Pesaheim
以及密西拿逾越节 and that mysterious aphikomenos
还有神秘的aphikomenos I still don't think it ends up to a Christian Seder
我还是不认为这是基督教逾越节家宴 But in this point too
但是这一点也同样 let everyone decide
由大家自己决定 let each person decide
每一个人自己决定 what your sense of the text as you read it
你在读这些文献的时候由自己判断 Alright, we are going to do a Socrative quiz
我们准备做一个Socrative在线测试 I'm running out of time
我没有时间了 Actually it's two minutes early
实际上还早了两分钟 So sure there is no question for two minutes
在两分钟之内没有问问题的吗 that can fill in there, two minutes?
可以在两分钟之内解决的问题 You can go back and read the passages
你们可以回头读读那些段落 You haven't read Melito yet
你们还没读过墨利托 It's a little long, I admit
我承认是有点长 And also, you get the point pretty quickly
同样 你们会很快搞清楚 And it seems to be repetitive
书看起来是一直在重复 But again, it's poetry, it's liturgy
但是这是诗歌 是祷告文 You know, go with it
所以好好读读 Surrender yourself to it
仔细研究下 It has power
很有力量 Even if by the time you get to the end
就算是读到最后你发现 it's actually a shocking text
这是很令人震惊的文献 Okay, that's it
好了 就这样 Oh, Brandon
Brandon请说 What you say is that Melito is like
你说墨利托像是 He's more looking at the John's version of
他是倾向于赞同约翰福音的版本 Yes
是的 As we've already discussed
我们已经讨论过了 John's theology of the paschal lamb triumphs
约翰福音对于羔羊的神学理论占主导 Everybody has got it
大家都同意这一点 Okay
好的 Right, Christ is the paschal lamb
基督是逾越节羔羊 It's such a powerful image
这是很强大的形象 that everybody has got it
大家都同意这一点 Even if you also believe
就算你也相信 that Christ instituted
基督在最后的晚餐 the Eucharist at Last Supper
创立了圣餐仪式 which is illogical
这有点不合逻辑 But, put both together
但是 放到一起看 Okay
好的 Right, so Melito leaves out
墨利托没有提到 the Words of Institution
祝圣祷文 leaves out the Eucharist
没有提到圣餐 leaves out the Last Supper
没有提到最后的晚餐 Right, right
是的 是的 But okay
但是没关系 So he's working with John
他赞同约翰福音 Yes
请问 I understand like the idea that
我明白犹太人不应该有 the Jews shouldn't have killed Christ
杀掉基督的这种想法 But what, let some else do it
而是让别人去做 Right
好的 Why is the slaughter of Christ
为什么杀害基督 is a bad thing
相对于 is compared to the paschal sacrifice
逾越节祭品是坏事 Good, you put your finger
很好 你确切说出了一个 on an illogical moment, right
不合逻辑的时刻 是的 Cos the slaughtered the lamb in Exodus 12
因为屠宰羔羊是出埃及记第12章中 was commanded by God
上帝下达的命令 Which is I guess a good thing, right?
我想这是好事 对吧 You know, in the scale of things
你懂的 从宏观上看 Whereas, excuse me
因此 抱歉 The slaughter of Jesus
杀害耶稣 of course, is a bad thing
当然就是坏事 Right, it shows out the Jews
这表明了犹太人 shows out what wicked Jews are
表明了犹太人有多邪恶 or Israel, or Israelites
或者说以色列人 So there is no logic there
这里没有逻辑 I'm not sure how to explain it
我不知道应该怎么样解释 But if you push it
但是如果你追究下去 after all, the Gospel of John was not saying
毕竟约翰福音没有说 Christ is the paschal lamb
基督是逾越节羔羊 or fix blame on Israelites
以色列人要承担责任 That's not what John is going with this at all
这完全不是约翰福音对此的看法 Right, but that's where Melito is going with it
但是这是墨利托的看法 So yeah, there is a certain disconnect there
所以是的 这里是有一些缺乏关联 I agree with you
我同意你的看法 If you have, come up with
如果你想出来 a good answer to that, let me know
更好的答案 记得告诉我 Yes
请说 I have a question about that afikomen thing
我有一个关于afikomen的问题 So we talked about
我们说到 when we first talked about this
我们第一次讲到这个 You said that for a sheer moment
你说有一个确定的时间 afikomen is what Jews didn't do
afikomen是犹太人不做的事情 That's what the Mishnah says
这是密西拿说的 We don't end the paschal meal with afikomen
不要以afikomen结束逾越节晚餐 Yeah, and so in that sense
是的 所以如此说来 It was actually like after-dinner entertainment
这其实是饭后娱乐 Entertainment, drinks, food
娱乐 喝酒 食物 Yes, exactly
是的 没错 So do you like, you said it like, believable that
那么你是不是认为 this was probably written before afikomen
这可能是在afikomen被解读成 was interpreted as that hidden piece
是藏起来的一块无酵饼之前存在的观点 Good point
很好的观点 If I have time, I would pursue the matter, right
如果有时间 我会刨根问底 So again, the idea that afikomen
afikomen的概念是 is something that we await
我们等着 期待着 and looks forward expectantly at the end
在最后出现的东西 Namely a piece of matzah, right
也就是一块无酵饼 对吧 That of course is only found
这当然只在13世纪 in the text in the 13th century and beyond
和之后的文献里面才有这种说法 So to make this connection pregnant
所以为了让这种联系富有意义 or really rich
或者更丰富 you have to say was no
你必须要说 不 that idea of afikomen is already old
afikomen的想法很古老 and already was interpreted symbolically
已经被解读成了符号化 already back in ancient times
在古时候就有 And Melito and, that is playing a riff on that
墨利托对此是即兴发挥的 or the rabbis are playing a riff on this idea
拉比也是即兴发挥的 of the Matzah the end of days
在当天最后的无酵饼 When come to the end of the meal
在晚餐的最后 be fully revealed
被发现 and in common, redeem us
共同点是 对我们的救赎 Right, you have to argue that
你必须要争论说 You know, that series of associations
这一系列的联系 that was already around in antiquity
在古代的时候就有了 That's tough
这很困难 You know, if you are a hard-blooded
如果你是冷血的 hard-nose historian
强悍的历史学家 Cold-blooded hard-nosed historian
冷血的 强悍的历史学家 Like me
就像我 You would say
你会说 Well, you know
你知道的 thousands of years is a long time
几千年是很长一段时间 You know, I don't see into the 13th century
一直到13世纪从罗马来的文献出现 in the text comes from Rome
我才见过这个 I don't know how you are gonna
我不知道你们怎么能 get back to second, third century
回到公元二世纪 三世纪 Asian Minor, Roman Palestine
小亚细亚 罗马人的巴勒斯坦 I don't see it
肯定不行 However, other people would say, no
但是有些人会说 不对 surely it was there
肯定是在那 Surely
肯定 But you are right
但是你是对的 Put your finger on the problem
确实发现了问题 Maybe it is also idle coincidence
也许这只是巧合 and we are making much out of nothing
我们也得不出来什么结论 You just talking Greek
我们是在说希腊语 and used this word twice
用了两次这个词 Alright, that's good point
懂了吗 这个很好的观点 Yes, Harry?
Harry 请说 Is there a history of this liturgy of Melito
墨利托祷告文在历史上 actually be mute?
曾经被禁吗 No
没有 When we get until 1940
我们直到1940年 this text was not known
才知道它的存在 So his quartodecimans lost out
所以他没有十四主义之说 After all, the Greek church does not
毕竟希腊的教堂不会在 celebrate Easter on the 14th day
春天第一个月的第14天 of the spring month
庆祝复活节 Celebrates Easter on
以他们自己的 by its own calculation on Sunday
计算方法在星期日庆祝复活节 And I guess, the second question would be
我想第二个问题是 如果你赞同 If you are buying this connection
在afikoman和犹太人之间 between the afikoman of the Jews
在afikoman和基督徒之间 and the afikoman of the Christians
有这样的关联 And they are so similar
二者如此类似 Who is taking from who?
那么谁影响了谁呢 Whom
用宾格 Yes, who's talking from whom?
是的 那么谁影响了谁 Excellent question
很好的问题 In the old days
在从前 the scholars used to say all the time
学者们总是会说 Jews are always influencing
犹太人总是在影响 Christians are always receiving
基督徒总是在接受 In the last 20 years
在最近20年 Scholar pendulum has swung
学者们的想法摇摆不定了 Now the tendency as to see
现在的倾向是 all rabbinic Judaism are somehow
所有的拉比犹太教 a reaction to, a response to
某种方式回应 actually borrowing from early Christianity
其实是在从早期基督教吸收东西 Or Christianity plays a formative role
或者在拉比犹太教生成的过程中 in the shaping of Rabbinic Judaism
基督教扮演了构成了角色 That's the trend from
这是最近 the last 20 years or so
20年的趋势 I'm not sure which team am I
我不确定我倾向于哪一方 I'm still of two minds on the subject
在这个问题上两方我都同意 So you can argue the point either way
你可以从任何方面讨论这个问题 And next week, we start
下周我们开始 our survey of Jewish and Christian theology
纵览犹太教和基督教的宗教体系 Rhine & trismile Production