我们开始讨论 We've begun to turn to
柏拉图的对话录《斐多篇》了 Plato's dialogue Phaedo,
上一节课 我们简单的 and what I started doing last time was sketching
讲了《斐多篇》形而上学的要点 the basic outlines of Plato's metaphysics--
没必要做太深入的研究 not so much to give a full investigation of that--
这里我们也不需要那样做 clearly we're not going to do that here--
只要对《斐多篇》中形而上学观点的 but just to provide enough of the essential outlines
核心概述有足够的了解 of Plato's metaphysical views
我们就可以理解 so that we can understand the arguments
《斐多篇》后面的观点 that come up later in the Phaedo,
基本上所有的或者说诸多的这些先决条件 basically all of which or many of which presuppose something--
都是柏拉图形而上学观点的重要基石 certain central aspects about Plato's metaphysical views.
他的形而上学背后的关键点是 The key point behind his metaphysics then was the thought that,
除了我们都熟悉的 in addition to the ordinary empirical physical world
现实世界 that we're all familiar with,
我们必须假定某种第二领域的存在 we have to posit the existence of a kind of second realm,
这存在于柏拉图的 in which exist the Platonic--
那些如今被称作为 as they're nowadays called--
柏拉图型相或柏拉图理念中 the Platonic forms or Platonic ideas.
这类事物 The sort of thing
我们可能需要称作或认为是抽象的现实 that perhaps we might call or think of as abstract objects
或抽象的性质 or abstract properties.
我们假定这些的原因是 And the reason for positing these things is
这样我们就能够清楚的 because we're clearly able to
去思考这些理念 think about these ideas,
目前我们认识到在正常的现实世界中 and yet, we recognize that the ordinary physical world--
尽管很多东西或多或少的参与其中 although things may participate in them to varying degrees--
我们并不会在现实世界中 we don't actually come across these objects
直接面对这些对象或者个体 or entities in the physical world.
我们可以探讨 So that we can talk about
事物的不同程度的美丽 things being beautiful to varying degrees,
但是我们从不在现实世界中 but we never come across
直接碰到"美丽"这个东西 beauty itself in the actual empirical world.
我们可与去探讨 We are able to talk about
二加一等于三的这个事实 the fact that two plus one equals three,
但是我们不可能有一天真的碰到数字 but it's not as though we ever come across numbers--
在现实世界中碰到个叫"数字三"的东西 number three itself--anywhere in the empirical world.
更进一步 使现实世界和这个所谓的 A further point that distinguishes the empirical world from this--
柏拉图的理念世界的区别 this realm of Platonic ideal objects--
在于那个世界中有些东西是完美的 is that indeed they-- there's something perfect about them.
它们不会改变 They don't change.
相比之下 In contrast,
现实的东西是在不断地发生变化的 physical objects are constantly changing.
一个事物可能在某一时刻很矮 Something might be short at one point
然后在另一时刻又会变高 and become tall at another point,
某一时刻很丑 然后变得很美 ugly at one point and become beautiful--
就像丑小鸭一样 like the ugly duckling.
开始很丑 然后变成一只美丽的天鹅 It starts out ugly and becomes a beautiful swan.
相比之下 公正本身不会改变 In contrast, justice itself never changes.
美丽本身不会改变 Beauty itself never changes.
我们认为这些事物是永恒的 We have the thought that these things are eternal,
而且 与现实的世界相比 and indeed, beyond change,
它超越了变化 in contrast to the empirical world.
如果你开始更多的 In fact, if you start thinking more
从这个观点去思考这个世界 about the world from this perspective,
我们生存的世界是很疯狂的 the world we live in is crazy.
它几乎是出奇的矛盾 It's almost insanely contradictory.
柏拉图认为这种疯狂就像是做梦一样 Plato thinks of it as crazy in the way that a dream is.
当你被卷入梦中时 When you're caught up in the dream,
你不会意识到它有多疯狂 you don't notice just how insane it all is.
但当你退一步 仔细回想 But if you step back and reflect on it,
让我想想 "Well, let's see,
我当时在吃三明治 然后突然 I was eating a sandwich and suddenly
三明治变成了自由女神像 the sandwich was the Statue of Liberty,
不过这个女神是我的母亲 except the Statue of Liberty was my mother.
她正跃过海洋 And she's flying over the ocean,
但是她其实只是根意大利面条 except she's really a piece of spaghetti."
这就是梦 That's how dreams are.
当你置身其中 好像一切都顺理成章 And when you're in it, it sort of all makes sense.
你被卷入其中了 Right? You're kind of caught up,
但当你退出来时会说 but you step back and say,
"真是太疯狂了" "That's just insane."
柏拉图认为 Well, Plato thinks
现实的世界也是类似的疯狂 that the empirical world has something of that kind of insanity,
这其中有一种矛盾性 something of that kind contradictoriness,
但我们身在其中一般不会注意到 built into it that we don't ordinarily notice.
他是个篮球运动员 "He's a basketball player,
所以他长的很高很高 so he's really, really tall,
但是只有6英尺[1.8米] except he's only six feet.
所以作为篮球运动员 他又很矮很矮 So he's really, really short for a basketball player.
这是只大象宝宝 This is a baby elephant,
所以它很大很大 so it's really, really big--
但是它只是个大象宝宝 except it's a baby elephant,
所以它其实又很小很小 so it's really, really small."
这个世界就这样不断的左右摇摆 The world is constantly rolling--
这是种柏拉图式的表达 this is a Platonic expression--
型相间的来回摇摆 rolling between one form and the other.
而且很难讲清其中的道理 And it's hard to make sense of.
相比之下 In contrast,
心灵反而能够认知到柏拉图理念 the mind is able to grasp the Platonic ideas,
柏拉图型相 the Platonic forms;
它们是稳定的 可靠的 它们是 and they're stable, they're reliable, they are--
它们如同法律 我们可以领会它们 they're law-like and we can grasp them.
它们不会改变 它们是永恒的 They don't change; they're eternal.
这就是柏拉图式的理念结构 That's, as I say, the Platonic picture.
我的目的不是 Now, it's not my purpose here
试图去辩护或者反对 to try to argue for or against
柏拉图哲学中的抽象实体这个概念 Platonism with regard to abstract entities.
就像我上次用数学举例一样 As I suggested in talking about the example of math last time,
即便这不是一个我们都能接受的观点 it's not a silly view, even if it's not a view
这也不一定是个愚蠢的观点 that we all take automatically.
但在用数学的方式进行思考时 But in thinking about math,
我们都倾向于变成柏拉图主义者 most of us are inclined to be Platonists.
我们都相信有些东西 We all do believe something makes it true
使2加1等于3是正确的 that two plus one equals three,
但这不是说现实的东西 but it's not the fact that empirical objects--
我们不会在现实中做实验 We don't do empirical experiments
去看看二加一是不是等于三 to see whether two plus one equals three.
我们认为 Rather, we think
我们的心灵可以去领会数字中的真理 our mind can grasp the truths about numbers.
柏拉图认为万事万物都是如此 Plato thought everything was like that.
我不会去主张或反对这个观点 Well, I'm not going to argue for and against that view--
只是想简述给你们 just wanted to sketch it,
以便去理解那些在此基础上的论点 so as to understand the arguments that turn on it.
所以为了我们的目的 So for our purposes,
让我们假设柏拉图是对的 let's suppose Plato was right about that and ask,
然后呢 what follows?
柏拉图认为接下来 Well, Plato thinks what's going to follow is
我们就有理由去相信 that we have some reason to believe in
灵魂的不朽 the immortality of the soul as, again,
就像我们上次指出的 as we indicated last time,
它的中心思想是心灵 灵魂 the picture is that the mind--the soul--
可以去认知 is able to grasp
这些柏拉图的型相 理念 these eternal Platonic forms, the ideas.
通常我们对这些东西的思考 Typically, we're distracted from thinking about them
被身体的一些需求打乱了 by the distractions provided by the body--
比如对食物 饮料 性 睡眠的欲望 the desire for food, drink, sex, what have you, sleep.
但是通过脱离肉体的自身因素 But by distancing itself from the body, the mind,
心灵和灵魂就可以更好的专注于那些型相 the soul, is able to better concentrate on the forms.
如果你善于这样做 And if you're good at that,
如果你在活着的时候练习 if you practice while you're alive,
把你自己与肉体分离 separating yourself from the body,
那么当你的身体死去 then when your body dies,
心灵就可以前往那个柏拉图的极乐世界 the mind is able to go up to this Platonic heavenly realm
与上帝及其他的不死圣灵沟通 and commune with gods and other immortal souls
并一起思考那些型相 and think about the forms.
但假如你没有 But if you've not
在活着时让心灵从身体中抽离 separated yourself from the body while in life,
如果你太过于陷入身体的渴求 if you're too enmeshed in its concerns,
在你死后 then upon the death of
你的灵魂会被吸回这个世界上 your body your soul will get sucked back in,
可能会转世 进入另一个肉体 reincarnated perhaps, in another body.
幸运的话 转世为人 If you're lucky, as another person;
如果不幸运的话 if you're not so lucky,
可能会变成猪 驴 蚂蚁等等 as a pig or a donkey or an ant or what have you.
所以你的目标 柏拉图说 So your goal, Plato says,
你的目标应该是 your goal should be,
活着时 练习 in life, to practice death--
把心灵从身体分离出来 to separate yourself from your body.
因此 And because of this,
苏格拉底在面对死亡时 Socrates, who's facing death,
并不哀伤 反而很高兴 isn't distressed at the prospect, but happy.
他很高兴这最后的分离终于要发生了 He's happy that the final separation will take place
这样他就可以去天堂了 and he'll be able to go to heaven.
对话在死亡场景中结束 The dialogue ends, of course, with the death scene--
此时苏格拉底已经被雅典人宣判死刑 Socrates has been condemned to death by the Athenians,
对话在他喝毒药的时候结束 and it ends with his drinking the hemlock,
他并不哀伤 反而有点快乐 not distressed but rather sort of joyful.
然后对话以一个 And the dialogue ends with one of
西方文明史上最伟大感人的死亡场景结束 the great moving death scenes in western civilization
用柏拉图的话说 and as Plato says--
让我们引用的更准确些 let's get the quote here exactly right--
在我们所知的所有人中 "Of all those we have known,
他是最好 最有智慧 最正直的人 he was the best and also the wisest and the most upright."
我想让你们注意 Just before the death scene,
在这个死亡场景之前 there's a long myth,
有一个古老的传说 which I draw your attention to
但我不想去讨论任何的细节 but I don't want to discuss in any kind of detail.
柏拉图说 它是个故事 是个传说 Plato says it's a story; it's a myth.
他想说明有些事 He's trying to indicate that there are things
我们并不能通过科学来理解 that we can't really know in a scientific way
但我们能知道一点 but we can glimpse.
那个传说与我一直形容的 And the myth has to do with these sort of pictures
这个大局有关 I was just describing
我们并不真正生活在地表 where we don't actually live on the surface
生活在阳光里 of the Earth of in the light,
而是生活在某种暗无天日的黑洞中 but rather live in certain hollows in the dark
一个我们都误解了现实本质的地方 where we're mistaken about the nature of reality.
你们中的那些 Some of you
对柏拉图稍晚些的《理想国》对话录 who are maybe familiar with Plato's later dialogue
熟悉的同学会知道 起码我认为 The Republic may recognize at least what seems to me,
我们这里讲的是预示着洞穴的那个传说 what we have here, is a foreshadowing of the myth of the cave,
或者洞穴的寓言 or the allegory of the cave,
柏拉图在(其他对话录里)也描述过 which Plato describes there as well.
我们关心的是 Our concern is going to be the arguments
这个对话录核心的论点 that make up the center of the dialogue.
因为在对话录的核心部分中 Because in the center of the dialogue,
苏格拉底在死前与他的朋友争论时说 before he dies, Socrates is arguing with his friends.
苏格拉底说 Socrates is saying, "Look,
我不担心 我会得到永生的 I'm not worried. I'm going to live forever."
而他的学生和朋友们 And his disciples and friends
都担心这到底是不是真的 are worried whether this is true or not.
所以这部对话录的核心 And so the heart of the
是由一系列的讨论组成的 dialogue consists of a series of arguments
其中苏格拉底试图摆出他的原因 in which Socrates attempts to lay out his reasons
让人相信灵魂是不朽的 for believing in the immortality of the soul.
这也是我们要关心的 And that's going to be our concern.
我要做的是 What I'm going to do is
基本上是重新 basically run through my attempt to reconstruct--
把柏拉图给我们的这4 5个论点中 my attempt to lay out the basic ideas
一些基本的观点拿出来讨论一遍 from this series of four or five arguments that Plato gives us.
我会批判他们 I'm going to criticize them.
我不认为它们行得通 I don't think they work,
在此我得声明 though I want to remark before I turn to them
说这些话时 that in saying this
我并不一定是在批判柏拉图 I'm not necessarily criticizing Plato.
因为我们将看到 As we'll see,
一些后期的观点似乎是专门用来 some of the later arguments seem to be deliberately
回答那些反驳 aimed at answering objections
尤其是针对我们之前讲的那些观点的意见 that we can raise to some of the earlier arguments.
所以说不定柏拉图认识到 And so it might well be that Plato himself recognized
最初的论点 that the initial arguments
并不是他所需要的那样强有力 aren't as strong as they need to be.
柏拉图写下这些对话录 Plato wrote the dialogues
是为了将其作为一种助学方法 as a kind of learning device,
作为一种帮助读者 as a tool to help the reader
更好的掌握哲学的工具 get better at doing philosophy.
它们不一定是很系统的 They don't necessarily represent in a systematic fashion
不是说柏拉图已经 Plato's worked out axiomatic
提出了一套系统的哲学自然理论 views about the nature of philosophy.
有可能是柏拉图有意的 It could be that Plato's deliberately
在早期理论中犯下一些错误 putting mistakes in earlier arguments
从而鼓励你们去独立思考 so as to encourage you to think for yourself,
这个论点有问题 "Oh, this is--here's a problem with this argument.
我有反驳它的理由 There's an objection with that argument."
其中一部分 柏拉图后来可能会解释 Some of these, Plato then may address later on.
但是不论他有没有涉及那些 But whether or not he does address them--
如果我们束缚自己 而只是去 we're not doing Plato any honor,
揣测柏拉图的真实想法的话 we're not doing him any service,
我们不仅对柏拉图的不尊重 if we limit ourselves to simply trying to grasp,
也没有给予他任何帮助 here's what Plato thought.
我们可以做思想史研究 然后阐述说 We could do the history of ideas and say,
这是柏拉图的观点 "Here's Plato's views.
它们不是很有趣吗 Aren't they interesting?
注意它们是如何不同于亚里士多德的观点 Notice how they differ from Aristotle's views.
不是很有趣吗 Aren't they interesting?"
然后以这种方式一直下去 And move on like that.
但是这不是 But that's not
那些哲学家想让我们做的事 what the philosophers wanted us to do.
这些伟大的哲学家们做出了论证 The great philosophers had arguments that they were putting forward
来使我们相信 to try to persuade us
他们观点的正确性 of the truths of their positions.
因此对一位哲学家表示尊敬的方式应该是 And the way you show respect for a philosopher is by taking
认真地对待他们的论证 并且问你自己 those arguments seriously and asking yourself,
那些论证是否说的通 do they work or not?
所以不管通过苏格拉底之口 So whether or not the views
说出来的理论是否被认为是 that are being put forward in Socrates' mouth are the considered,
体现了柏拉图的本意 reflective judgments of Plato or not,
但对于我们来说 姑且当作是 for our purposes we can just act as though
柏拉图本人提出的论证 they were the arguments being put forward by Plato,
然后问自己 and we can ask ourselves,
这些论证是否能证明其观点 "Do these arguments work or don't they?"
我先简单地说一下 So I'm going to run through
这一系列的论证 a series of these arguments.
就像我之前提及的一样 I'm going to, as I've mentioned before,
我对此要比之前的 be a bit more exegetical
阅读资料解释的更多一些 than is normally the case for our readings.
我会时不时停下来 I'm going to actually pause,
看看我的笔记 以确保 periodically look at my notes and make sure
我记得我自己对柏拉图论证的理解 I'm remembering how I think Plato understands the arguments.
由于仅仅是对话 Of course, since the dialogue is indeed a dialogue,
我们不会看到一长串 we don't always have the arguments laid out
有前提和结论的论证 with a series of premises and conclusions.
所以总有很多要解释的东西 And so it's always a matter of interpretation,
怎样才是对他所倾向的 what's the best reconstruction
做到最好的重构 of the argument he's gesturing towards.
我们怎样才能 How can we turn it into
把一个论证变得具有前提和结论呢 an argument with premises and conclusions?
这就是我们要尝试的事情 Well, that's what I'm going to try to do for us.
同时我将命名那些论证 Also going to give the arguments names.
这些名字不是柏拉图起的 These are not names that Plato gives,
但是这能方便我们 but it will make it easy for us
在逐一推进的时候粗略地了解一下 to get a fix, roughly, on the different arguments
这些不同论证的定义 as we move from one to the next.
第一个论证 So the first argument,
同时也是使后面的对话得以进行的担忧是 and the worry that gets the whole things going, is this.
我们这有一个柏拉图式的场景 So, we've got this nice Platonic picture
柏拉图说 where Plato says,
心灵可以认知永恒的型相 "All right. So the mind can grasp the eternal forms,
但是它必须先从肉体中解脱出来 but it has to free itself from the body to do that."
所以 那些 And so, the philosopher,
已经为灵魂脱离肉体 who has sort of trained
以及忽视自己的肉体欲望 himself to separate his mind from his body,
做好准备的哲学家 to disregard his bodily cravings and desires--
将会欢迎死亡的到来 the philosopher will welcome death
那时他会真正地 最终地 because at that point he'll truly, finally,
从自己的肉体中解脱出来 make the final break from the body.
在对话中的这个阶段 And the obvious worry that gets raised in the dialogue
一个明显的担忧就是 at this point is this:
我们怎么知道 How do we know
当肉体死亡的时候 that when the death of the body occurs
灵魂不会随之被摧毁 the soul doesn't get destroyed as well?
这个是很自然的担忧 That's the natural worry to have.
也许我们需要做的是 Maybe what we need to do
尽可能地把我们 is separate ourselves as much as possible
和肉体对我们的影响分开 from the influence of our body
但是又不能真的彻底分开 without actually going all the way and breaking the connection.
你可以想象一个橡皮筋 If you think about it like a rubber band,
也许把它伸展得越长越好 maybe the more we can stretch the rubber band the better;
但是你把它伸展得过长 以至绷断 but if you stretch too far and the rubber band snaps,
那就不好 那很糟糕 that's not good, that's bad.
也就是说 It could be that
我们或许需要肉体以继续思考 we need the body in order to continue thinking.
我们想把自己从肉体的干扰中解放出来 We want to free ourselves from the distractions of the body,
但是我们不能让肉体死亡 but we don't want the body to die,
因为当肉体死去的时 灵魂也会同样消亡 because when the body dies the soul dies as well.
就像以前一样 Even if we are dualists,
即使我们是二元论者 as we've noticed before
认为灵魂是不同于肉体的 even if the soul is something different from the body
但从逻辑上来说 仍然可能出现 it could still be the case, logically speaking,
假如肉体死去 that if the body gets destroyed
灵魂也随之消亡的情况 the soul gets destroyed as well.
于是苏格拉底的朋友们就问他 And so, Socrates' friends ask him,
如何才能使我们确信 how can we be confident
灵魂会在肉体的消亡中幸存 that the soul will survive the death of the body
并且是真正的永生的呢 and indeed be immortal?
这就催生了一系列的论证 And that's what prompts the series of arguments.
我给第一个论证起的名字是 Now, the first such argument I dub
"型相本质论" "The argument from the nature of the forms."
这个基本的思想很简单 And the basic thought is fairly straightforward.
理念或者型相 The ideas or the forms
如正义 美丽 美德之类 justice itself, beauty itself, goodness itself
它们并不是物理实体 the forms are not physical objects. Right?
我们根本不可能撞见正义本身 We don't ever bump into justice itself.
我们可能遇见或多或少有点正义的社会 We bump into societies that may be more or less just,
或多或少有点正义的个人 or individuals who may be more or less just,
但是我们决不会撞见正义本身 but we never bump into justice itself.
数字三也不是一个物理实体 The number three is not a physical object.
美好本身也不是 Goodness itself is not a physical object.
正圆也不是 Perfect roundness is not a physical object.
因此 粗略地讲 Now, roughly speaking,
苏格拉底似乎认为 Socrates' seems to think
这就很明确地说明了 it's going to follow straightforwardly from that
灵魂也必须是非现实的东西 that the soul must itself be something non-physical.
如果型相不是物理实体 If the forms are not physical objects,
那么苏格拉底认为他们不可被认知 then Socrates thinks it follows they can't be grasped.
我们当然能想象型相 We can certainly think about the forms,
但假如他们是非现实的 but if they're non-physical
他们将不能被现实的事物 they can't be grasped by something physical
比如肉体 所认知 like the body.
他们只能被 They've got to be grasped
非现实的事物认知 比如灵魂 by something non-physical--namely, the soul.
不过虽然那是 But although that's, I think,
苏格拉底思路走向 the sketch of where Socrates wants to go,
我认为它没有提供太多我们想要的 it doesn't quite give us what we want.
一方面 即使 On the one hand, even if it were true
灵魂必须是非现实的 that the soul must be non-physical
以便来认知非现实的型相 in order to grasp the non-physical forms,
也没法推导出 wouldn't follow that
灵魂可以在肉体死亡之后存活 the soul will survive the death of the body.
那是我们刚才在思考的问题 That's the problem we've been thinking about for the last minute.
并且一些事情也具有迷惑性 And there's something puzzling.
我们可能会想 We might wonder, well,
为什么肉体就不能认知型相 just why is it that the body can't grasp the forms?
所以这有一个完整版的论证 So there's a fuller version of the argument
那才是我想要着重说明的 that's the one I want to focus on.
我把它写在了黑板上 And indeed, I put it up on the board.
柏拉图的形而上学论给了我们前提一 So Platonic metaphysics gives us premise number one--
理念或者型相是永恒的 非现实的 that ideas, forms, are eternal and they're non-physical.
前提二 Two--
永恒和非现实的事物只能被 that which is eternal or non-physical can only be grasped
永恒和非现实的事物所认知 by the eternal and the non-physical.
在这二条前提的前提下 Suppose we had both of those.
我们似乎就得到了第三条 It would seem to give us three,
也就是我们要的结论 the conclusion we want--
能认知理念 that which grasps the ideas
或者型相的事物必须是永恒或非现实的 or the forms must be eternal or non-physical.
什么能认知理念或者型相呢 What is it that grasps the ideas or the forms?
是灵魂 Well, that's the soul.
假如能认知 If that which grasps the
理念或者型相的事物必须是永恒 非现实的 ideas or the forms must be eternal/non-physical,
那么我们能得到的结论是 well one thing we're going to get is,
既然能认知型相的事物必须是非现实的 since that which grasps the forms must be non-physical,
而且灵魂并不是肉体 the soul is not the body.
同时能认知理念 Since that which grasps the ideas
或者型相的事物必须是永恒的或非现实的 or forms must be eternal or non-physical--
所以灵魂是永恒的 不朽的 it's eternal, it's immortal.
我们再把这个论证更仔细地看一遍 All right. Let's look at this again more carefully.
理念或者型相是永恒的 是非现实的 Ideas or forms are eternal; they're non-physical.
我已经强调了非现实的方面 Well, I've emphasized the non-physical aspect,
并且我也强调了他们的不变性 and I've emphasized as well that they're not changing.
但是也许有必要花一些时间 But perhaps it's worth taking a moment
强调一下型相的永恒性 to emphasize the eternal aspect of the forms.
人类可能生老病死 Now, people may come and go,
但是完美的正义 but perfect justice
或者说完美正义的理念 是永恒的 --the idea of perfect justice--that's timeless.
在地球上发生的任何事都不能 Nothing that happens here on Earth can change
改变或者消灭数字"三" or alter or destroy the number three.
在人类出现之前 二加一就等于三 Two plus one equaled three before there were people;
二加一现在等于三 two plus one equals three now;
并将永远等于三 two plus one will always equal three.
数字"三"是永恒的 The number three is eternal,
同时也是非现实的 as well as being non-physical.
柏拉图的形而上学论说得非常笼统 So the Platonic metaphysics says quite generally,
假如我们提到理念或者型相 if we're thinking about the ideas or the forms,
要点就是他们是永恒的 是非现实的 the point to grasp is they're eternal; they're non-physical.
最关键的前提是 The crucial premise
我们已经承认了前提一 since we're giving Plato number one
所以对我们来说最关键的前提是前提二 the crucial premise for our purposes is premise number two.
我们是否可以说 Is it or isn't it true
那些永恒 that those things which are eternal
或非现实的事物只能被 or non-physical can only be grasped
本身是永恒和非现实的其他事物认知呢 by something that is itself eternal and non-physical?
看起来他想要的第三条结论 Again, it does seem as though the conclusion that he wants,
是很合理的推论 number three, follows from that.
假如我们承认前提二 If we give him number two,
那么接下来就是不管是什么事物在认知 it's going to follow that whatever's doing the grasping--
姑且称之为灵魂好了 call that the soul since
因为灵魂是柏拉图对我们心灵的称呼 the soul is just Plato's word for our mind--
假如能够认知永恒 if whatever's doing the grasping of the eternal
和非现实型相的事物本身必须是 and non-physical forms must itself be
永恒和非现实的 eternal and non-physical,
那么灵魂必须是非现实的 it follows that the soul must be non-physical.
所以现实主义者是错误的 So the physicalist view is wrong
而且灵魂肯定是不死的 and the soul must be eternal.
灵魂是不朽的 The soul is immortal.
所以如果我们同意他的前提二 So Socrates has what he wants,
苏格拉底就得到了他想要的 once we give him premise number two,
前提二说永恒 非现实的事物 that the eternal, non-physical
只能被永恒 非现实的事物认知 can only be grasped by the eternal, non-physical.
正如苏格拉底所总结的 As Socrates puts it at one point,
污秽不会拥有纯洁 "The impure cannot attain the pure."
易腐朽的 能被摧毁的 Bodies--corruptible, destroyable,
现实的 逝去的肉体 physical, passing--
不论他们是存在与否 whether they exist or not,
不论他们是否 whether they exist for a
存在了一段时间然后又逝去 brief period and then they cease to exist--
这些污秽的物体不能获得 不能认知 these impure objects cannot attain, cannot grasp,
不会对永恒的 不变的 cannot have knowledge of the eternal,
非现实的型相有所认识 changeless non-physical forms. "
污秽不会拥有纯洁 The impure cannot attain the pure."
那就是最关键的前提 That's the crucial premise,
并且我想要说的是 and what I want to say is,
依我来看 目前 as far as I can see
并没有很好的理由来相信前提二 there's no good reason to believe number two.
前提二不是一个陌生的 Now, number two is not an unfamiliar--
前提二不是一个陌生的断言 premise number two is not an unfamiliar claim.
我把那个看做是个断言 基本上是为了 I take it the claim basically is that,
用更熟悉的语言来阐述 to put it in more familiar language
只有同类才最了解彼此 it takes one to know one.
或者 Or to use it,
一种稍微不同的说法是 slightly other kind of
柏拉图在多个观点中所用到的 language that Plato uses at various points,
同类互知 "Likes are known by likes."
同类的事物才能互相认知 But it takes one to know one
也许这是说明这个观点最熟悉的方式 is probably the most familiar way of putting the point.
柏拉图说 我们知道什么呢 Plato's saying, "What is it that we know?
我们知道永恒的型相 Well, we know the eternal forms;
并且知道同类互知 takes one to know one.
那么我们自身就必须是永恒的 So we must ourselves be eternal."
不幸的是 Unfortunately,
这样的想法 即同类者互知 this thought, popular as it may be,
可能很流行 that it takes one to know one,
但实际上是错误的 just seems false.
想想一些例子吧 Think about some examples.
比如说 生物学家 Well, let's see, a biologist might study,
或者动物学家可能会研究猫 or a zoologist might study, cats.
不过同类互知 Takes one to know one
那么这个生物学家他自己必须是猫 so the biologist must himself be a cat.
这显然是错的 Well, that's clearly false.
你不需要变成猫来研究猫科动物 You don't have to be feline to study the feline.
同类才能互知 Takes one to know one;
所以加拿大人就不能研究墨西哥人 so, you can't be a Canadian and study Mexicans,
因为只有同类才能互知 because it takes one to know one.
那实在是太愚蠢了 Well, that's just clearly stupid.
加拿大人当然可以研究墨西哥人 Of course the Canadians can study the Mexicans
德国人也可以研究法国人 and the Germans can study the French.
这不需要同类互知 It does not take one to know one;
你不需要是法国人 to understand the truths about the French,
才能了解法国人 you do not yourself need to be French.
再比如一些医生研究尸体 Or take the fact that some doctors study dead bodies.
所以为了研究并掌握关于尸体的知识 Aha! So to study and grasp things about dead bodies, corpses,
你自己必须先是一具死尸 you must yourself be a dead body.
这么说肯定不对 No, that certainly doesn't follow.
所以假如我们开始 So if we start actually
深入探讨一些例子 pushing ourselves to think about examples--
到底需不需要同类才能互知 答案是 does it really take one to know one--the answer is,
至少通常来说 这是不需要的 at least as a general claim, it's not true.
所以一般不需要同类才能互知 It doesn't normally take one to know one.
严格的来说 Now, strictly speaking,
这并不能证明前提二是错的 that doesn't prove that premise two is false.
理由可以是 It could still be that,
尽管通常来说你要想了解和研究一个事物 although normally you don't have to be like the thing
你不一定要成为那个事物 that you're studying in order to study it,
尽管这通常来说是不需要的 although that's not normally true,
但可能非现实的物体是一个特例 it could be that in the particular case of non-physical objects,
尤其是永恒的物体 in the particular case of eternal objects,
也许要研究这些物体 you do have to be eternal,
你自己本身必须是永恒的 非现实的 non-physical to study them.
即使一般来说 It could be that even though the general claim,
同类互知这个观点是错的 但它的特例 "It takes one to know one" Is false, the particular claim,
也就是永恒的非现实的东西只能被永恒的 "Eternal, non-physical can only be grasped by the eternal,
非现实的东西所理解 这可能是对的 non-physical," Maybe that particular claim is true.
而柏拉图只需要它的特例成立就够了 And it's only the particular claim that Plato needs.
然而我想问 为什么我们要相信前提二 Still, all I can say is, why should we believe two?
为什么我们应该认为即使通常来说 Why should we think there's some--Even though, normally,
那个界限是可以跨越的 the barrier can be crossed
即X可以研究非X and Xs can study the non-X,
那为什么这个界限突然 why should that barrier suddenly become un-crossable
在讨论柏拉图型相的时候 in the particular instance
就变得不可逾越了呢 when we're dealing with Platonic forms?
给我们点原因来相信前提二吧 Give us some reason to believe premise two.
我找不到什么很好的原因来相信前提二 I can't see any good reason to believe premise two,
在我看来 and as far as I can see,
柏拉图在对话录中 Plato doesn't actually give
也没有给出任何令人信服的理由 us any reason to believe it in the dialogue.
因此我们必须说 起码在我看来 Consequently, we have to say, as far as I can see,
我们没有一个够好的观点来支持这个结论 we haven't been given any adequate argument for the conclusion
就是承认了灵魂可以思考型相和理念 that the soul--which admittedly can think about forms and ideas--
我们也没有充分的理由来被说服 we have no good reason yet to believe,
并且相信 to be persuaded, that the
灵魂它本身必须是永恒的 非现实的 soul must itself be eternal and non-physical.
这是第一个观点 That's the first argument.
柏拉图本身 As I say though, Plato may
可能已经认识到这个观点站不住脚 well recognize the inadequacy of that argument,
因为苏格拉底 because after all Socrates
还提供了一系列其他的观点 goes on to offer a series of other arguments.
所以我们再看下一个 So let's turn to the next.
我把第二个观点称为"循环观点" I call the second argument "The argument from recycling"--
可能这不是最好的名称 not the best label I suppose,
但是我没有想到更好的 but I've never been able to come up with a better one.
其中心思想是每一个部件都会被再利用 And the basic idea is that parts get re-used.
物体从一个状态转移到另一个状态 Things move from one state to another state
再回到初始状态 and then back to the first state.
举例来说吧 So, for example,
柏拉图在对话中举过这么个例子 to give an example that Plato actually gives in the dialogue,
我们现在都清醒着 we are all awake now,
但之前我们都在熟睡 but previously we were asleep.
我们从睡的状态 We went from being in the realm of the asleep
进入到醒的状态 to being in the realm of the awake,
接着我们又会从醒的状态 and we're going to return from the realm of the awake back
回到睡的状态 周而复始 to the realm of the asleep and over and over and over again.
这就是循环 Hence, recycling.
一个能更好的解释柏拉图的观点的例子 I think that actually a better example for Plato's purposes,
尽管他本人不大可能想得到 not that I expect him to have this particular example,
我认为这个例子是汽车 but, would be a car.
汽车是由不同的零部件组成的 Cars are made up of parts
它们在车组装好之前就已经存在了 that existed before the car itself existed.
有引擎 方向盘 There was the engine and
轮胎以及之类的东西 the steering wheel and the tires and so forth.
这些零部件组装到一起生产出了一辆车 And these parts got assembled and put together to make up a car.
所以车的零部件 So the parts of the car
是先于车本身而存在的 existed prior to the existence of the car itself.
而车有一天会不再存在了 And the time is going to come when the car will cease
但它的零件却依然存在 to exist but its parts will still be around.
这些零件会被拆下来并出售 Right? It'll get taken apart for parts, sold for parts.
会有分电器盖 轮胎 There will be the distributor cap, and there will be the tires,
汽化器 and there will be the carburetor,
方向盘 there will be the steering wheel.
因此我美其名曰 Hence, the name, that I dub the argument,
循环观点 "The argument from recycling."
对柏拉图来说这就是万物的法则 That's the nature of reality for Plato.
这个观点似乎有一定的说服力 And it seems like a plausible enough view.
万物都是由之前存在的 Things come into being by
部件组成之后才出现的 being composed of previously existing parts.
当物体不再以它们之前的型相存在之后 And then, when those things cease to have the form they had,
每个组成它的部件会有其他的用途 the parts get used for other purposes.
它们被循环利用了 They get recycled.
如果我们同意柏拉图这个观点 If we grant that to Plato,
他认为我们就有了支持灵魂不灭性的论据 he thinks we've got an argument for the immortality of the soul.
因为我们的身体是由什么部件组成的呢 Because after all, what are the parts that make us up?
肉体由许多不同的部件组成 Well, there are the various parts of our physical body,
但是同样也有灵魂 but there's also our soul. Remember,
我在介绍斐多篇的时候 as I said, in introducing the Phaedo,
提到柏拉图并没有花大力气 Plato doesn't so much argue
去辩证肉体之外存在个什么东西 for the existence of something separate,
他直接默认了灵魂的存在 the soul, as presuppose it.
他最关心的是 His fundamental concern is
能否证明灵魂的不灭性 to try to argue for the immortality of the soul.
所以他直接 So he's just helping himself
默认了灵魂的存在 to the assumption that there is a soul.
灵魂是组成我们的部件之一 It's one of the parts that makes us,
它帮助构建了我们 that goes up into making us up,
它构建了我们 goes into making us up.
是组成我们的部件之一 It's one of the pieces that constitutes us.
如果循环观点是正确的 Given the thesis about recycling,
那么我们有理由相信 then, we have reason to believe the soul
灵魂会在我们消亡之后继续存在 will continue to exist after we break.
我们死了 组成我们的部件依旧存在 Even after our death, our parts will continue to exist.
我们的肉体在我们死亡之后依然存在 Our body continues to exist even after our death.
我们的灵魂会继续存在 Our soul will continue to exist.
然而循环观点 Well, there's a problem with
有一个问题 就是说 the argument from recycling, and it's this.
即使循环观点证明了 Even if the recycling thesis shows us
组成我们身体的部件是先于我们而存在 that we're made up of something that existed before our birth
同时一些部件 and that some kinds of parts
在我们死后会继续存在 are going to have to exist after our death,
但我们不能断言灵魂就是 we can't conclude that the soul is one of the parts
我们死后继续存在的部件之一 that's going to continue to exist after our death.
考虑几个我们熟悉的事实 Consider some familiar facts about human bodies.
我们现在知道人的身体是由原子组成的 As we nowadays know, human bodies are made up of atoms.
可以肯定的说 And it's certainly true
那些组成我身体的 that the atoms that make up
原子在我存在之前就存在 my body existed long before my body existed.
在我死后 And it's certainly true
这些原子也将继续存在下去 that after my death those atoms are going to continue to exist.
其中的某些原子 So there's some--and will
将被用来构成其他的东西 eventually get used to make something else.
所以柏拉图谈到 So Plato's certainly right
万物循环利用肯定是对的 about recycling as a fundamental truth.
那些构成我的部件在我之前就存在 The things that make me up existed before,
并且在我死后依然存在 and will continue to exist after my death.
但是这并不意味着 But that doesn't mean
组成我身体的所有部件都是先于我的存在 that every part of my body existed before I was born,
并不是每一个部件 and that every part of
都会在我死后依然存在 my body will continue to exist after I die.
打个比方 我的心脏是我身体的一部分 Take my heart. My heart is a part of my body.
然而它并不是先于我的存在 Yet, for all that, it didn't exist before my body began to exist.
它的出现 It came into existence as part of,
是伴随着我身体的出现而产生的 along with, the creation of my body,
在我死后它就不存在了 and it won't continue to exist,
至少在我身体死亡之后不会存活很长时间 at least not very long, after the destruction of my body.
在我死亡后很短的时间内 There'll be a brief period in which,
我的心脏将会继续存在 as a cadaver I suppose, my heart will continue to exist.
然而最终我的身体将会分解 But eventually my body will decompose.
我们没有任何理论根据 We certainly wouldn't have any grounds
来断言心脏是不死的 to conclude my heart is immortal,
并且将会永存 will exist forever.
这个观点似乎是错的 That just seems wrong.
即使有一些部件会被循环利用 So even though it's true that some kind of recycling takes place,
但我们不能断定 we can't conclude that everything
组成我们身体的每一部件都会死后永存 that's now a part of me will continue to exist afterwards.
永存的甚至可能不是 It might not have been one of the parts,
那些构成我身体的基础部件 one of the fundamental parts from which I'm built,
比如我的心脏 like the heart.
如果这是事实 And if that's right,
如果说现在构成我的一些零部件 if there can be parts that I have now
并不是在我存在之前就存在的 that weren't one of the parts from which I was made,
那我们就没理由相信 there's no particular reason to think
这些零部件会在我死后 it's going to be one of the parts that's going
继续存在下去 to continue to exist after I die.
我们清楚了这个缺陷之后 Once we see that kind of worry,
就必须想想 we have to see, look,
这道理对灵魂来说同样适用 the same thing could be true for the soul.
即使灵魂是不灭的 Even if there is an immortal soul--
不对 即使有个非现实的灵魂是我的一部分 Sorry. Even if there is a non-physical soul that's part of me,
我们并没有任何理由去相信 we don't yet have any reason to believe
灵魂是被循环利用的 that it's one of the fundamental
基本组成部分之一 building blocks that were being recycled.
我们并没有充分的理由来断定 We don't have adequate reason to conclude that
灵魂是在我被组装起来之前就存在了 it's something that existed before I was put together,
它会被循环利用 it's something that will be recycled
并且在我解体后依然存在 and continue to exist after I fall apart,
我的身体分解了之后 after my body decomposes,
在灵魂与肉体分离之后 或者其他说法 after I'm separated from my body, or what have you.
即使循环的确发生了 Even if recycling takes place,
我们并没有很好的理由来相信 we don't have any good reason yet to believe
灵魂就是一个循环的部件 that the soul is one of the recycled parts.
在我看来循环观点 So it seems to me "The argument from recycling,"
也是不成功的 as I call it, is not successful either.
很多时候当你阅读柏拉图的对话录 Now, as I say, many times when you read the dialogue,
不管是这篇还是其他篇 this or other dialogues by Plato,
柏拉图似乎很清楚至少有一个留心的读者 it seems as though he's fully cognizant of the objections
会对早期的一些观点 that at least an attentive reader will raise
提出反驳意见 about earlier stages of the argument.
因为有些时候 Because sometimes the best way to
理解后期观点最好的办法 understand a later argument is to see it as responding
是看它如何回应早期观点的缺陷与不完善 to the weaknesses of earlier arguments.
我想这就很清楚的 And I think that's pretty clearly
说明了对话录中的 what's going on in the very
下一个观点是什么 next argument that comes up in the dialogue.
刚刚我提出的异议 The objection I just raised, after all,
对循环观点的异议 总而言之 to the argument from recycling, said,
就是即使有一些部件会被循环利用 in effect, even though some kind of recycling takes place,
但不是所有部件都循环 not all my parts get recycled,
因为不是所有组成我的部件 because not all of my parts were among
都是先于我的身体存在的 the pre-existing constituent pieces from which I am built up.
我们没有什么理由 We don't have any particular reason
去相信我的心脏是之前就存在的 to think my heart's one of the prior-existing pieces;
我们没有理由说 we don't have any good reason
我的灵魂之前就是存在的 to assume that my soul's one of the prior-existing pieces.
柏拉图下面一个论证就试着 Well, Plato's very next argument attempts to persuade us
说服我们有理由相信 that indeed we do have reason to believe
灵魂原来就是存在的 that the soul is one of the prior-existing pieces.
这个论证被称作"回忆论" And this argument is known as "The argument from recollection."
大意是 他要 The idea is, he's going to
告诉我们一些需要解释的现象 tell us certain facts that need explaining,
以及对其最好的解释 and the best explanation
这包括一些回忆的例子 involves a certain fact about recollecting,
或者一些有关回忆的说法 or a certain claim about recollecting or remembering.
但是我们之前知道 But we can only remember, he thinks,
他认为我们的灵魂 in the relevant way if our
存在于我们的身体诞生之前 soul existed before the birth of our body,
在我们的身体被创造之前 before the creation of our body.
什么是关键性的现象 All right. What's the crucial fact?
让我们从这里开始 Well, let's start by--
柏拉图首先告诉我们 Plato starts by telling us,
提醒我们什么是记起一件事情 reminding us of what it is to remember something.
更恰当一点的说法是 Or perhaps a better word
你是如何因为另一个类似的事物 would be what is it to be reminded of something
而不是这个事物本身 by something else that resembles it
联想到这个事物的 but is not the thing it reminds you of.
我有一张我朋友露丝的照片 I might have a photograph of my friend Ruth.
我看到照片就想到她 And looking at the photograph reminds me of Ruth.
她在我脑海中浮现 我开始想起露丝 It brings Ruth to mind. I start thinking about Ruth.
我记起了很多关于露丝的事情 I remember various things I know about Ruth.
照片可以达到这个效果 The photograph is able to do that,
可以引起这些回忆 is able to trigger these thoughts.
但是照片不是露丝 But of course, the photograph is not Ruth.
应该没有人会 Right? Nobody would--who's thinking clearly--
把照片和我的朋友搞混淆吧 would confuse the photograph with my friend.
但是照片和露丝很相似 But the photograph resembles Ruth.
它和露丝相似到 It resembles Ruth well
足以让我想起她 有趣的是 enough to remind me of her, and interestingly,
一张不是很好的照片也可以做到 it can do that even if it's not a very good photograph.
你拿起照片 我可能会说 You might hold up the photograph and I might say,
这一点都不像露丝 "Gosh, that really doesn't look very much like Ruth does it?"
尽管我知道这是露丝的照片 Even though I see that it is a photograph of Ruth;
它让我想起了她 it reminds me of her.
那到底是什么 Now, how could it be
让我通过照片联想到我的朋友呢? that a photograph reminds me of my friend?
这不是什么深藏的谜团 Well, this isn't some deep mystery.
一般来说它的原理是 Presumably the way it works is,
我刚说了 它看起来有点像她 as I just said, it looks sort of like her.
它不需要看起来很像她 It doesn't have to look very much like her.
多少有点像就够了 It looks sort of like her.
你的弟弟妹妹或者我的小宝贝们 Your young brother or sister, or my little children,
可以画一些看起来 can draw pictures of family
仅仅有点像家庭成员的画 members that barely look like family members.
我侄女三岁时画了张全家福 My niece drew a picture of my family once when she was three.
看起来几乎不怎么像我们 It didn't look very much like us at all,
但我们可以或多或少的 but we could sort of see
找到些和我们相似的地方 the resemblance in a vague kind of way, right?
所以它必须有点像你想念的朋友 So it's got to look at least somewhat like the missing friend.
但是这样不够 But that's not enough.
假如你从来没见过露丝 You've never met Ruth, let's suppose.
我拿着照片 I hold up the photograph
不告诉你任何关于她的事情 without having told you anything about her.
这张照片不会让你想起露丝 The photograph's not going to remind you of Ruth.
为什么呢 Why not?
因为你不认识露丝 Well, you don't know Ruth.
所以我们不只需要露丝的照片 So the pieces we need are not only an image of Ruth,
甚至不能是一张不像露丝的照片 even if an imperfect image of Ruth,
我们必须之前就熟知她才行 we also need some prior acquaintance with Ruth.
基本上就是这个过程了 That's pretty much what it takes, right?
所以一方面 按时间顺序来说 So on the one hand--temporal sequence--
你需要先知道露丝 first you know Ruth,
见到露丝 了解露丝 you meet Ruth, you get to know Ruth.
然后以后你看到她的照片时 Then at a later time you're shown an image of Ruth--
就算不是特别像 但是足够 maybe not even an especially good image of Ruth--
让你想起她的一张照片时 but good enough to remind you.
然后立刻你就会 And suddenly, you're remembering
回想起关于露丝的一切 things you know about Ruth.
这就是回忆论的原理 That's how recollection works. All right.
柏拉图指出 Now, Plato points out that
我们都知道柏拉图型相 we all know things about the Platonic forms.
但是我们还知道 But the Platonic forms,
现实世界中没有柏拉图型相 as we also know, are not to be found in this world.
数字三不是一个物理实体 The number three is not a physical object,
正圆不是一个物理实体 perfect roundness is not a physical object,
真正的善良不是一个物理实体 perfect goodness is not a physical object.
我们可以思考这些东西 We can think about these things;
我们的心灵可以感受它们 our mind can grasp them,
但是在现实世界中我们找不到 but they're not to be found in this world.
然而现实世界中的一些事物 Yet, various things that we do find in this world
能让我们想到那些东西 get us thinking about those things.
我看着我餐桌上的盘子 I look at the plate on my kitchen table,
它不是正圆的 它不完美 it's not perfectly round, it's got imperfections;
但是我马上就可以想到圆圈 but suddenly I start thinking about circles,
正圆的东西 perfectly round objects.
我看到一个漂亮的人 I look at somebody who's pretty.
他或她并不是无瑕疵的漂亮 He or she is not perfectly beautiful,
但是我马上会想到美丽本身 but suddenly I start thinking about the nature of beauty itself.
这个世界的普通的事物 Ordinary objects in the world participate
在柏拉图型相中会处于或高或低的层次 to a greater or lesser degree in the Platonic forms.
这就是柏拉图眼中的形而上学 That's Plato's picture of metaphysics.
我们碰到 看到 And we bump up against, we look at,
我们和日常的事物互动的同时 we have interactions with these everyday objects and,
它们让我们想到 somehow, they get us
柏拉图型相本身 thinking about the Platonic forms themselves.
这是怎样发生的 柏拉图有他的理论 How does it happen? Plato has a theory.
他说 这些东西让我们回想到了柏拉图型相 He says, "These things remind us of the Platonic forms."
我们看到了某种程度上的美丽 We see something that's beautiful to some degree,
会让我们回想起完美的美丽 and it reminds us of perfect beauty.
我们看到较圆的东西 We see something that's more or less round,
我们会想到正圆 and it reminds us of perfect circularity.
我们看到某人品德不错 We see somebody who's fairly decent morally,
就会想到绝对的公正与完美的品德 and it reminds us of perfect justice or perfect virtue.
就像照片一样 It's just like the photograph,
或许拍的不好 perhaps the not very good photograph,
但是它能让我回想起我的朋友露丝 that reminds me of my friend Ruth.All right.
这也许解释了为什么有些 Well, there's an explanation of how it could be that things
本身并不是那么圆的东西 that are not themselves perfectly round could remind us,
会让我们想到正圆这个型相 could make us think about perfect roundness.
但是柏拉图又说 But then Plato says,
但是请记住(一个前提) "Okay, but keep in mind
就是如果你需要能回忆与联想 all of what you need in order to have reminding,
起某个的东西(的前提) to have recollecting take place."
如果一张照片能使我想起露丝 In order for the photograph to remind me of Ruth,
我必须已经见过露丝了 I have to already have met Ruth.
我必须已经熟悉她了 I have to already be acquainted with her.
如果一个或多或少 In order for a more or
有点圆的盘子能让我想到正圆 less round plate to remind me of roundness,
柏拉图认为 Plato says,
我必须已经见过完美的圆本身了 I have to have already met perfect roundness itself.
如果一个较为正义的社会 In order for a more or less
能让我想到公正本身 just society to remind me of justice itself,
能让我思考公正的本质 so that I can start thinking about the nature of justice itself,
我起码需要 I have to somehow have
对完美的正义有所认识 already been acquainted with perfect justice.
但这是什么时候怎样发生的呢 But how and when did it happen?
不是这一辈子 不是这个世界 Not in this life, not in this world.
这个世界没有正圆 In this world nothing is perfectly round,
没有什么是绝对漂亮的 nothing is perfectly beautiful,
没有绝对的正义 nothing is perfectly just.
所以应该是以前发生的 So it's got to have happened before.
如果看到我的朋友的照片 If seeing the photograph of my friend now
就能想起他/她本人 can remind me of my friend,
这是因为我以前见过我的朋友 it's got to be because I met my friend before.
如果我看到了 If seeing things that
一种型相的物体能让我想到这型相本身 participate in the forms remind me of the forms,
那么我之前一定直接见过 it's got to be because I've met
或者对那型相本身很熟悉 or been acquainted directly with the forms before.
但是 我们这辈子 But you don't bump up against, you don't meet,
没有直接碰到 见过 认知过 you don't see or grasp or become directly acquainted with,
这些型相 the forms in this life.
所以这些应该在这辈子之前发生的 So it's got to have happened before this life.
这就是柏拉图的论据 柏拉图说 That's Plato's argument. Plato says,
思考我们认知型相的过程 thinking about the way in which we grasp the forms
能让我们意识到 helps us to see
灵魂肯定在人诞生前就存在 that the soul must have existed before birth,
它在柏拉图式的天堂界里直接认知 in the Platonic heavenly realm, directly grasping,
直接与之交流 直接了解这些型相 directly communing with, directly understanding the forms.
既然不是这辈子发生的 It's not taking place in this life,
那么就肯定是以前发生的 so it has to have happened before.
现在我们得到了一直在寻找的那种论证 Now we've got the kind of argument we were looking for.
早一点的反驳意见是 Earlier the objection was,
我们没有好的理由来相信灵魂 We had no good reason to think the soul was one of the
是组成我们的一个基础部件 building blocks from which we're composed;
我们没有好的理由去相信它是 we have no good reason to think it's one of the pieces
在我们出生前 that was around before
身体形成前就存在的部分之一 our body got put together, before our birth.
苏格拉底说 不对 恰恰相反 Socrates says, "No. On the contrary,
基于回忆论 we do have reason,
我们有理由去说 based on the argument from recollection,
灵魂存在于我们出生之前 to conclude that the soul was around before we were born."
那么下一个问题是 All right. So the next question is,
回忆论是否是无懈可击的呢 is the argument from recollection a good one?
我其实并不太关心 Now, let's say, I'm not really much concerned
柏拉图本人认为 with whether this was an
这个论证是否说得通 argument that Plato thought worked or not.
问题是 我们认为它说得通吗 Our question is, do we think it works or not?
由于这个型相的论点 Although this is a form of an argument
柏拉图在其他的对话录里也提到过 that Plato does put forward in other dialogues as well,
所以这令我觉得他可能 and so it strikes me so there's at least some reason to think
觉得这个论点可以成立 this is an argument that he felt might well be right.
关键的前提是 The crucial premise--Again,
我们依然直接承认柏拉图的形而上学 we're going to just grant Plato the metaphysics.
关键的问题就是 The crucial question is going to be, is it right
为了解释 that in order to explain how it is
我们现在能了解某种型相 we could have knowledge of the forms now
就必须认为我们出生之前 that we have to appeal to a prior existence
已经直接熟悉了这些概念 这对吗 in which we had direct acquaintance?
我觉得它不太正确 It's not obvious to me that that's true.
有几个原因 It's not obvious to me for a couple of reasons.
一个问题是 One question is this:
难道真的说 Is it really true that in
为了想象一条完美的直线 order to think about the perfectly straight,
我必须 I must have somehow,
在某处直接碰到 somewhere at some point come up against,
并直接了解一条完美的直线吗 had direct knowledge of, the perfectly straight?
难道仅仅依靠我这辈子碰到的东西 Isn't it enough for me to extrapolate from cases
不足以使我推断出来吗 that I do come up against in this life?
我遇见过弯的东西 I come across things that are bent;
我碰到过更直的东西 I come across things that are more straight,
越来越直的东西 more and more straight.
即使我之前没有直接碰到过 Can't my mind take off from there
难道我的心灵不能借此来推断出 and push straight ahead to the idea of the perfectly straight,
完美的直线是什么样子的吗 even if I never have encountered it before?
我今天以这个观点结束 Let me stop with this idea.
即使柏拉图是对的 Even if Plato is right,
我们必须 that we need to have acquaintance
先熟悉柏拉图型相才能想象它们 with the Platonic forms themselves in order to think about them,
即使柏拉图是对的 and even if Plato is right
我们在与这个世界的现实事物接触时 that we never get the acquaintance in this world,
从来没有直接见过(柏拉图型相) in the interaction with ordinary physical objects,
那么为什么不可能是 why couldn't it be that our acquaintance
我们就是在这辈子 with the Platonic forms comes
第一次见到柏拉图型相呢 about in this life for the very first time?
这就是个问题 或者说反驳意见 That's the question, or that's the objection,
我们下次课从这里开始 that we'll turn to at the start of next class.