今天我们要看苏格拉底的演讲 And today we take up the speech of Socrates.
很明显苏格拉底演讲中的很多主题 It's clear that Socrates's speech picks up many of the themes
此前已经有人论述 that have been developed
前面的演讲者已经提过 and put on the table by the earlier speakers.
也很明显苏格拉底的演讲 It's also clear that Socrates's speech
将其中的一些主题上升到了新的高度 brings some of these issues to a new level.
我来概括地说一下 Let me talk some in a general way
这里的前后关系 about what's happening here.
我们跳过了阿伽通的演讲 The speech that we skipped over was the speech of Agathon's.
在他的演讲中 Agathon gives a speech about
爱神爱若斯的形象和他自己一样 how Eros is just like well Agathon,
年轻美貌 young and beautiful.
阿伽通甚至说 And Agathon goes so far as to say that
爱若斯常常远离那些年老丑陋的人 love, Eros always flees from those who are old and ugly,
这时酒会上的每一个人 and it could not have escaped the notice of anybody
都会注意到 at this symposium that just as Agathon was
阿伽通自己是在场最年轻美貌的 the youngest and most beautiful man there,
而最年老丑陋的则是苏格拉底 so too the oldest and ugliest man there was Socrates
他俩刚巧躺在同一张床榻上 who just happen to be sharing the same couch as Agathon.
大家还记得在对话一开始 Now you'll remember back at the beginning of the dialogue
苏格拉底到阿伽通家的时候 that when Socrates arrived at Agathon's house,
他们之间有一段 there was some banter between them
关于智慧的逗乐 about the nature of wisdom.
苏格拉底狠狠地表扬了一番阿伽通的智慧 Socrates praised extravagantly the wisdom of Agathon
因为阿伽通在之前的悲剧比赛中获胜 that had just been displayed by Agathon's victory
展现了他的智慧 in the dramatic competition in the tragedies.
阿伽通发觉苏格拉底在取笑他 Agathon saw that Socrates was teasing him,
但在对话的那个时候 but at that point in the dialogue,
阿伽通还不想因为与苏格拉底的斗嘴 Agathon did not want to distract from the dinner party
而打搅了饭局 in order to carry on this debate with Socrates.
因此他对苏格拉底说 So what he said to Socrates was
我们一会儿再来讨论谁更有智慧 "we'll take up the question of which of us is wiser later.
还要让狄俄尼索斯神来评判 And then we'll let Dionysus judge."
雪莱的译本中把它译成了 The god Dionysus as Shelly translates it
对应的罗马神巴克斯 into the Roman god Bacchus.
阿伽通提到了将由谁 Agathon's gesture there who will judge
评判这场哲学与诗的智慧的较量 the wisdom of philosophy in its debate with poetry,
谁来评判这个问题的答案 Agathon's question there about who will judge is answered
是一个神 with a god,
而这个神在这些男人开始演讲之前 and in particular with the god that we saw
就被医生厄律克西马库残酷地排除在外了 had been rigorously excluded by Eryximachus the medical man
他们的演讲将是男性 理性 清醒的 when they start to give these manly, rational, sober speeches
关于一种醉人体验的本质 about the nature of this intoxicating experience
即我们所说的情爱 we call erotic love.
而阿伽通却说让狄俄尼索斯来评判 So, Agathon says let Dionysus judge the question of wisdom
是我对爱的诗意理解更有智慧 between my poetic understanding of love and you, Socrates,
还是你对爱的哲学理解更有智慧 your philosophical understanding of love.
因而对话是让我们 The dialogue asks us then
在评判苏格拉底的演讲时 to introduce into our own judgment of Socrates's speech
将它作为对阿伽通诗意演讲的批判 so much of which is a critique of Agathon's poetic speech.
对话让我们引入一种评判 The dialogue asks us to introduce a judgment,
这评判将是 a judgment that it figures
或希望是狄俄尼索斯的评判 or prefigures as the judgment of Dionysus.
我们知道狄俄尼索斯既是酒神 Now we remember that Dionysus is the god both of wine,
或笼统地说是狂喜和陶醉之神 more generally of ecstasy and intoxication,
也是戏剧之神 but also the god of theater.
因而让他来评判 So that to invoke Dionysus as a judge
是要将对话的进展 is to see the action of this dialogue
当做戏剧比赛的过程 as an action like a dramatic competition,
就像阿伽通刚刚获胜的比赛一样 the sort of competition that Agathon has just won.
当然 And of course
在阿伽通找狄俄尼索斯做评判时 at the point that Agathon invoked Dionysus as a judge,
我们没想到这些人前一晚喝得太多 we did not know that these men would feel so hung over
因而宿醉不已 from the previous night's party
所以他们要取消 that they will try to deny
狄俄尼索斯在酒会中通常的地位 Dionysus's normal place within the symposium
而不再一起喝酒了 through the experience of drinking together.
当阿伽通把狄俄尼索斯作为评判时 So when Dionysus is invoked as a judge by Agathon,
我们既会猜测那些对智慧的谈论 we are to expect both that the claims of wisdom will be
将会通过一场比赛 演出或展示来评判 evaluated within a competition, a performance, a display
让我们想起戏剧表演 that reminds us of dramatic performance,
每个演讲者都可以说是在演一出戏 so that each speaker will sort to speak be putting on a play
展示他对情爱本质的观点 of his own view of the nature of erotic love,
我们也会猜测 but also the claim that
要想获得关于情爱的智慧 a certain kind of wisdom is available to us about erotic love
必须愿意让自己喝醉 only if we're willing to become intoxicated,
必须愿意允许 only if we're willing to countenance
出现一种狂喜 the possibilities of a kind of ecstasy,
失去平时冷静的状态 a losing of our normal sobriety,
或者丧失自我 a threat to our identities.
这个主题在柏拉图另一篇 We saw this theme worked over
伟大的演讲《费德鲁斯篇》中也反复出现 in Plato's other great erotic dialogue Phaedrus.
在《会饮篇》的这个地方又出现了 We see it emerging here again in the Symposium.
苏格拉底演讲一开始 Socrates's speech begins
先盘诘了阿伽通一番 when Socrates interrogates Agathon.
但很奇怪的是 But then oddly enough,
对阿伽通的很多质问后来又重复出现 much of the interrogation of Agathon is repeated.
而这回苏格拉底说 But this time Socrates says,
阿伽通 以前我对爱的认识和你很像 "Agathon, I used to have views about love a lot like you did.
后来我认识一个人 But then I met somebody
教我情爱真正的本质是什么 who taught me what the nature of erotic love really is."
于是苏格拉底回顾了他学习的经历 And Socrates plays back for us his own experience of learning,
这和苏格拉底刚才 which it turns out is very much like the experience
指引阿伽通的过程非常相似 Agathon has just gone through learning from Socrates.
而最惊人的是 But most strikingly of all,
苏格拉底的老师 it turns out that Socrates's teacher
竟然是个女人狄奥提玛 was a woman, the woman Diotima.
在当时的语境中这意味着什么呢 Now what's going on in this context?
早些时候狄俄尼索斯神被排除了 We've seen the earlier exclusion of Dionysus,
但同时被排除的还有阿芙罗狄蒂神 but we've remembered too the earlier exclusion of Aphrodite
以及所有与音乐和女性相关的东西 and of all things musical and feminine
都被这群清醒的男人排除 from this group of sober man.
吹笛女就被请了出去 The flute girl was excluded.
而苏格拉底至少在这篇演讲中 Socrates at least in speech now
违背了酒会前的这种做法 does something that confronts that exclusion.
他介绍说指引他 He introduces his own guide
获知情爱本质的是一个女人 into the truth of erotic life as a woman.
从这个角度 苏格拉底继承了 In this respect, Socrates inherits something
阿里斯托芬的演讲 and drives it to a new level
并把它推到了新的层次 that was introduced by Aristophanes's speech.
我们记得阿里斯托芬曾指出 You'll remember that Aristophanes introduced the notion that
人类情爱生活中至少 at least some important part
有一个重要部分不能完全是男性的 of human erotic life cannot be all male.
我们需要女性 We have to allow for the female,
特别是要允许双性同体 and in particular, we have to allow for the androgynous.
苏格拉底发展了这个主题 Socrates takes that theme
通过叙述自己的故事说明这一点 and turns it into biography, or autobiography.
苏格拉底所学的 Socrates himself has learned
关于爱若斯的一切就来自一个女人 everything he knows about Eros from a woman.
因此这种奇怪的重复 So this odd repetition
首先是苏格拉底盘问阿伽通 first, Socrates examines Agathon
接着狄奥提玛盘问苏格拉底 then Diotima examines Socrates
主题和支撑材料都几乎一样 with so much of the same theme, the same sematic material
通过这种方式 this is the way
苏格拉底把自己置于女性的角色 of Socrates putting himself into a position
就像狄奥提玛在他们之间的地位一样 that his own autobiography with Diotima codes as female.
不管苏格拉底是多么男人 Socrates however manly he may be,
在酒会所有这些男人面前 enacts in the sight of all of these men at the symposium,
他表明将要教阿伽通的 the fact that he's now going to do with Agathon,
或者已经教给阿伽通的 or he has just done with Agathon
正是一个女人教给他的 what a woman did with him.
我们通常认为男性的东西 The theme of the interpenetration of something
与我们通常认为女性的东西 we would normally think of as masculine,
相互交融的主题 with something we would normally think of as feminine,
成了苏格拉底演讲大戏的一部分 is then a part of the drama of Socrates's own speech.
第二个我们在此前演讲中不断看到的主题 A second theme that we've seen in the lot of the speeches
是从费德鲁斯的演讲开始的 starting from Phaedrus's speech
即对被爱之人的很多赞美 where so much of the praise of the beloved
其实是在赞美爱情直面死亡的能力 was in fact a praise of love's ability to confront death,
或者说接受死亡 to accept death
要是爱情注定如此的话 if that's what love calls for.
爱情和直面或战胜死亡 This theme of the connection between love
两者之间的关系问题 and some confrontation or overcoming of mortality
这也是苏格拉底演讲的一个核心 is also front and center in Socrates's own speech.
苏格拉底从狄奥提玛那儿学到 Socrates's learnt from Diotima that
情爱欲望源自一种欠缺 erotic desire is a kind of neediness
只有通过 that can be fully satisfied
善和幸福才能完全满足 only by a good, by a kind of happiness,
这种缺陷不会逃跑 根本而言是永恒的 that is never fleeting, that would essentially be permanent.
像我们这样会死的生物 Now for beings like us, beings like us who will die,
这意味着情爱似乎会 that means that erotic love looks to
超越我们自身的生命长度 stretch out beyond ourselves, beyond our own life.
因此情欲的核心部分 So that a central part of erotic desire,
这种欲望的一个方面 an aspect of the desire itself
就是一种活下去的愿望 is some aspiration to live on,
越过死亡的界限 beyond the bounds of our mortality.
这是狄奥提玛将情爱 This is one of the central ways then
与神圣相连的核心方式之一 that Diotima sees erotic desire as linked to the divine.
人类同神圣之物沟通的方式 The human way of making contact with the divine
是通过情爱延伸至永生 is through an erotic reaching out to the immortal
人类实现这一目标的方式 and the form that this takes in human beings
是通过繁衍或创造新的人 is the form of reproduction, or the form of creativity.
特别的一点是 这不仅延续了 Now it's striking how this both picks up
阿里斯托芬演讲中的主题 the themes of Aristophanes's speech,
还超越了它们 but also transforms them.
大家记得在讲阿里斯托芬演讲的时候 You'll remember when we focused on Aristophanes's speech,
我们提到在他的演讲中 we talked about the way that in Aristophanes
人类结合的欲望 the human erotic desire for reunion,
对亲密和交合的欲望 for that kind of intimacy, that coupling,
根本上与神圣的目的是分离的 was fundamentally separate from a divine purpose,
神圣目的只是 that had been super-imposed
情爱交合生理表现的附加物 on the physical expression of that erotic coupling.
阿里斯托芬说那些分裂的人 Aristophanes eroticized broken human beings
确实会繁衍后代 do produce offspring,
确实会在交合的过程中生育 or procreative in their search for union.
但在他的演讲中 But the desire for offspring in and of itself
对后代的欲望不是受情爱的驱使 is not in Aristophanes's speech a part of the erotic drive.
相反 在狄奥提玛对情爱驱动力的论述中 By contrast, in Diotima's account of the erotic drive,
我们在情爱生活中所追求的 the sort of union we seek
与另一个人的结合 with another human being in erotic life
本身就包含了对永生的追求 has within it this search for immortality,
即对束缚我们的死亡界限的超越 this overcoming of the bounds of death that we live inside.
因而狄奥提玛的观点就是 So that as Diotima sees erotic love,
当我们望着所爱之人的眼睛 when we look into the eyes of the beloved,
感受到了一种身体的冲动 and feel that rush of a motion
即我们所谓坠入爱河的那种欲望 and desire that we call falling in love,
当我们清楚地说出 when we fully articulate
这种冲动和欲望背后的根源时 what's behind that rush of desire,
我们发现它同时包含了生育和繁衍 we find that it includes creativity, reproduction.
因而阿里斯托芬的演讲 So a topic that Aristophanes's speech
引出的这个话题 has brought into the conversation
在苏格拉底的演讲中被发展到了 is now developed to a much higher level
情爱程度的更高层次 of erotic intensity by Socrates's own speech.
当然这也是苏格拉底的演讲 By the way, this is also a way that Socrates's speech
对此前阿伽通演讲的利用 makes use of Agathon's preceding speech.
阿伽通在演讲中说情爱诗人的创造 Agathon's speech has presented the creativity of the love poet
是人类情爱体验的核心部分 as a central aspect of the human experience of the erotic.
苏格拉底在演讲中接过这一话题 Socrates in his speech takes that up
将其放入阿里斯托芬论述中 and inserts it into Aristophanes's picture of
那男女共存的浪漫画卷中 a fundamentally androgynous romantic existence.
柏拉图对这种新的设想的论述 The way that Plato's develops this new picture of Eros
是特别令人意外的 is especially striking.
我们来看几个段落 Let me just point to a couple of passages.
首先来看我们译本的第45页 First of all I want to look on page 45 of our translation.
在202 This is at 202.
狄奥提玛引导苏格拉底的方法 The way that Diotima pushes the question on Socrates
是问他爱是不是一个神 is to ask him whether love is a god.
阿伽通此前把爱说成所有神中 Agathon of course has presented love as the youngest,
最年轻 最漂亮 最博爱的一个 and most beautiful and most philanthropic of all the gods.
狄奥提玛却不这么教苏格拉底 Diotima teaches Socrates differently.
她说爱不是一个神 It turns out that love is not a god,
也不是简简单单会死的 neither is love something simply mortal.
爱是一种存在 一个精灵 Love is instead a being, a spirit,
希腊语是daimōn the Greek word is a daimōn,
demon(恶魔)一词就由此而来 where we get the word for demon.
爱是介于人和神之间的精灵 Love is a daimōn that is between the human and the divine.
它是一种调合的力量 Indeed love is that mediating force
使人升华更接近神 that lifts humans toward gods
也使神能够降落至人 and allows gods to descend toward humans.
我们又一次看到了神圣这一主题 Here again, we see the theme of divination,
即我们的情爱生活 of our erotic life as somehow intimately
十分有可能超越 bound up with the possibilities of
凡间和日常生活的束缚 human transcendence of the mundane, of the everyday,
而朝神圣的方向往前进 in the direction of something understood as sacred, as godly.
因此当狄奥提玛在表现这个神 So as Diotima presents the god,
更精确地说是爱之精灵时 or rather more precisely the daimōn Eros, the spirit Eros,
说情爱生活 it turns out that the
从根本而言是哲学的生活 erotic life is a fundamentally philosophical life.
这是在第47页中间204a This is in the middle of page 47 at 204a.
狄奥提玛说 可以这样子讲 Diotima says, "The case stands thus
没有哪个神爱智慧 no God philosophizes
本集中引文的翻译参考刘小枫先生的译文 or desires to become wise,
也没有欲望要成为有智慧 for he is wise;
因为神已经有智慧了 nor, if there exist any other being who is wise,
甚至那些已经有智慧的人 does he philosophize."
也不爱智慧 The philosophers on Diotima's picture
而狄奥提玛所说的爱智慧的人 are the exemplary case of those living in erotic life
才是情爱生活中的人们的榜样 because they are restlessly bound into
因为他们一刻不停地 a constant cycle of seeking wisdom.
不断寻找着智慧 And of course the Greek word philosophy
哲学这个词在希腊语中 means a lover of wisdom.
就是爱智慧的人 It doesn't mean someone who is wise;
它的意思不是有智慧的人 it means someone who seeks wisdom.
而是找寻智慧的人 The picture of this restless seeker of wisdom
关于爱若斯父母的精彩神话 that Diotima gives in her gorgeous myth of the parents of Eros
所表现的一刻不停追寻智慧的形象 is clearly modeled on Socrates himself.
很明显是照着苏格拉底描述的 To mention only one striking aspect of this modeling.
只需举一个明显的模仿的例子 Eros in this myth of his birth, turns out to have no shoes.
在这神话中的爱若斯不穿鞋 One of the most striking habits of Socrates
而我们知道苏格拉底 who as you'll remember is almost always barefoot,
最可怕的习惯就是几乎永远赤脚 so that when Aristodemus came across him
在对话一开始 at the beginning of the dialogue,
穿着漂亮拖鞋的阿里斯托德穆斯 with his fancy party slippers on,
碰到苏格拉底时 Aristodemus notes it as something very much atypical.
就觉得这是种非常不正常的做法 So Socrates like all the other speakers in the dialogue,
所以和对话中其他演讲者一样 is presenting Eros in his own image and likeness.
苏格拉底也根据他自己的形象描写爱若斯 This daimōnic Eros,
这个精灵爱若斯 this Eros that's in between the humans and the divine,
处在人和神之间的爱若斯 is itself an image of the philosophical life
这形象本身就是 as Socrates experiences it, as he lives it out.
体验着其哲学生活的苏格拉底 It's striking to notice that
很意外的一点是 in the myth that Diotima tells of the parentage of the god Eros,
在狄奥提玛所讲的爱若斯父母的神话中 this is on page 46, starts around 203b.
在第46页 203b前后 It's striking that in this particular myth,
在这个神话中 Diotima, or rather Socrates in his report of Diotima,
苏格拉底所转述的狄奥提玛 directly contradicts Pausanias's speech.
与包萨尼亚的演讲针锋相对 You'll remember that Pausanias presents us with
我们记得包萨尼亚为我们展现了 two goddesses named Aphrodite,
两个阿芙罗狄蒂女神 a heavenly Aphrodite, whose parentage is wholly male,
一个属天 其父母都是男的 and an earthy Aphrodite,
一个属地 whose parentage is both male and female, androgynous.
其父母有男有女 The story that Diotima adopts is
狄奥提玛的故事中 of love being given birth to androgynously,
爱的父母是有男有女的 by a mother and a father.
一个父亲一个母亲 This theme of the integration
这个男性和女性 of the masculine and the feminine,
交合的主题 continues as Diotima, or Socrates through Diotima,
还继续出现在苏格拉底口中的狄奥提玛 describes the experience of
所描述的著名的 what is famously called here giving birth in the beautiful.
在美中生育的这种体验 The notion is as Diotima develops it,
据狄奥提玛所言 that we all feel erotic desire
我们都有情爱欲望 not simply for other people as beautiful,
这不单纯是为了漂亮的人 but rather we have a profound desire for creativity.
而是因为我们有一种创造的深层欲望 And we experience a provocation too
面对我们所认为的漂亮的人时 and an energy for that kind of creativity
我们就会感到一种刺激 when we're in the presence of someone we consider beautiful.
以及这种创造的力量 So that Eros is not a desire for
因此爱若斯并非只是 merely the possession of the beloved.
占有所爱之人的欲望 That would be a rather poor,
这样的情爱就显得 a rather vulgar version of erotic desire.
太寒酸太鄙俗了 Erotic desire instead, is propelled by our desire
正确的情爱应当是 to give birth in the company of somebody beautiful.
在美丽的另一半陪伴下创造生命的欲望 So that we experience our beloved as that person
因而我们就把能和我们一起生育的人 with whom we can give birth.
视作所爱之人 The language that Diotima uses for this giving birth
狄奥提玛所用的讲生育的语言 is strikingly a combination of male sexual images,
很明确既有男性意象 images of ejaculation
即射精的意象 and female images of giving birth.
以及女性分娩的意象 So that for example on page 51, this is around 206e.
比如第51页 206e前后 Diotima says "to one pregnant"
狄奥提玛说 凡有生育欲 and the picture is that we are all pregnant,
她的意思是我们都是有生育欲的 either physically or spiritually.
不论身体上还是精神上 "To one pregnant
凡有生育欲 and as it were, already bursting with the load of his desire,
并且已经在胸中膨胀的人 the impulse towards that which is beautiful is intense,
会那么拼命缠住美 on account of the great pain
因为只有美 of retaining that which he has conceived."
才能解除生育的阵痛 So this sexualized image of what's fundamentally
根本而言 这是一种精神上的创造欲 a kind of spiritual procreativity
狄奥提玛通过性的形象来表现 is meant to be neither primarily male nor primarily female;
既非以男性为主 也非以女性为主 it's meant to combine the male and the female
而是要将男女融入同一个 into one potent image of an erotic life
强有力的情爱画面中 that can't be fully controlled
而在对话一开始演讲者们 within the macho categories
只引入了男性的语境 originally introduced by the speakers in this dialogue.
这是无法完全驾驭情爱生活的 We need a set of categories
我们需要的人的类型 that bring directly into erotic desire,
他们能在情爱欲望中 the aspects of reproduction and pregnancy
直接引入生育和怀孕这些方面 that we are originally introduced
这个话题在最初 into this dialogue by Aristophanes's speech.
阿里斯托芬的演讲中就提出了 Diotima directly
狄奥提玛直接地 addresses her difference with Aristophanes's speech.
指出了她与阿里斯托芬演讲的不同之处 The question is in erotic desire,
问题就是 在情爱欲望中 do we desire what is good?
我们所欲求的是好的东西? Or do we desire what is our own?
还是我们已有的东西? This passage actually begins on the bottom of page 49,
这部分内容从第49页下面开始 around 205e.
205e左右 Diotima says to Socrates,
狄奥提玛对苏格拉底说 "It is asserted by some, that they love,
有这样一种说法 who are seeking the lost half of their divided being.
凡欲求自己另一半的就是在爱恋 But I assert,
依我说 that Love is neither the love of half or of the whole,
爱恋所欲求的不是什么另一半或整体 unless, my friend, it meets with that which is good;
朋友 除非这一半或整体确确实实是好的 since men willingly cut off their own hands and feet,
因为要是觉得是坏的 if they think that they are the cause of evil to them."
即便是自己的手足也宁愿砍掉 This is the fundamental difference
关于爱恋的本质 about the nature of our falling in love with other people.
这是狄奥提玛与其他人的根本不同点 When we fall in love with somebody
当我们爱上一个人 and we say that person is my soul-mate,
说与那个人心心相印 that person completes me,
用影片《甜心先生》的话说就是 to use the Jerry Maguire line,
那人使我变得完整 you're my other half.
是我的另一半 Do we mean by that that the other person
这么说的时候只是简单地说 simply returns us to some state of wholeness
对方使我们回归完整的状态 without any regard to whether that state of wholeness
而完全不考虑那种完整的状态本身 or completeness would itself be a good thing?
是不是好的东西? When we fall in love with somebody,
我们爱上某人的时候 are we simply looking for someone
只是为了寻找 who sort to speak puts us in our comfort zone,
能让我们获得安慰的人吗? who makes us feel at home,
只是为了感觉自在 so that we are not lonely any more.
感觉不再孤单吗? But of course not being lonely
可事实上不感到孤单 is perfectly consistent with being incredibly lazy.
完全就是懒惰至极的另一种说法 It may well be that we feel comfortable with someone
某个人让我们感到自在 exactly when that person does not provoke in us
可能正是因为那人没能激发 any restless aspirations
我们的上进心 to be better, to be as good as we can.
尽力让自己变成更好的人 Do we seek in our lovers, in our beloveds, in our friends,
我们在爱我们的人 我们爱的人和朋友身上 that prod to our ambition, to our aspiration,
追求的是一种对斗志和上进的刺激吗? that Diotima seems to presuppose
狄奥提玛的答案是肯定的 in her critique of Aristophanes?
并以此批评阿里斯托芬 Do we look for love to be the grounds
我们寻求爱难道不是为了创造平台 of a restless seeking of a self that's not fully realized yet,
让我们不断追寻尚未完善的自己 something that's lies latent in our potential?
实现那些尚未激发的潜能? We talked about how in the Phaedrus it seems
在《费德鲁斯篇》中我们说过 what the lover sees the beloved through the eyes of aspiration
爱人通过欲望的眼睛看到的被爱之人 is what the beloved can become,
正是被爱之人可以实现的样子 that is from the lover's point of view,
从爱人的眼里看出来的 the beloved's truest self.
是被爱之人最真实的自己 Diotima too seems to assume some such view.
狄奥提玛似乎也持这种观点 And she sees it as a challenge
并且以这种观点去反驳 to Aristophanes's emphasis on erotic wholeness,
阿里斯托芬强调的情爱完整状态 on the notion that's healing a wound
狄奥提玛认为 rather than driving an aspiration that accounts for
人类爱恋最重要的 the central importance of falling in love in human lives.
不是抚慰自己而是激发欲望 The last passage that I want to look at in Socrates's speech,
我们要看的最后一段话 the speech he learned from Diotima,
苏格拉底转述狄奥提玛的一段话 is the most famous part of it.
是演讲中最著名的一部分 It starts on page 55 at the bottom, it's at 210a.
从第55页下面开始 210a左右 Diotima says to Socrates,
狄奥提玛对苏格拉底说 "Your own meditation, O Socrates,
到此为止 哦 苏格拉底 might perhaps have initiated you in all these things... "
你大概还能领悟... Notice that this is set up as a religious initiation into a mystery.
注意这种宗教的口吻正在引出神话 "... might have initiated you in all these things
你大概还能领悟 which I have already taught you on the subject of Love.
我透露给你的爱欲奥秘 But those perfect and sublime ends,
但走过了迄今为止 to which these are only the means,
我们循正道所经历的路程 I know not that
我就不知道 you would have been competent to discover.
你是否有能力领悟最终的 最奥妙的奥秘 I will declare them, therefore,
反正我会把这奥秘透给你 and will render them as intelligible as possible:
不会有所保留 do you meanwhile strain all your attention
你尽自己所能试试 to trace the obscure depth of the subject."
看能不能跟上这深邃的奥秘 The notion of obscure depth
深邃的奥秘 drives us back to the passage at 192d,
让我们想起了192d的一段 when the god Vulcan came down
阿里斯托芬在演讲中说 to the bedded lovers in Aristophanes' speech
伏尔甘神下到凡间 and asks them what the truth of their desire was.
问床上的夫妻欲求的究竟是什么 But it was too obscure for them to put words on.
但这问题太深奥 他们无法表达出来 It escaped their ability to use speech.
这超出了他们语言的能力 Here too Diotima tries to help Socrates find words
狄奥提玛也在试图寻找语言 for something that goes beyond his unated capacity.
描述超出他理解能力的奥秘 She gives a famous account here of
她的论述很有名 how with the right erotic guide
在对话的这一部分也显得非常重要 and that's crucial to this part of the dialogue.
她说必须要有正确的情爱向导 With the right person guiding you,
有了正确的向导 your erotic interest in one beautiful individual
你对一个美丽个体的爱欲 will gradually expand into an erotic interest
会逐渐扩展为对智慧的爱欲 in knowledge as such into some peak of erotic experience,
达到情爱体验的顶峰 a peak at which we never stay,
我们不会在这个顶峰逗留 but the aspiration to climb this ladder or this stairway of love
但爬上爱之阶梯的欲望 is something that makes us always aspirational
能让我们永远保持向上的热情 when we're lovers and beloveds,
不管作为爱人还是被爱之人 never people who are simply comfortable
而不仅仅是满足于已有的成就 with what we already attain.
安于现状 Again, we see aspects of the same sort of thought
这种情爱的进取特征 about the aspirational character
在《费德鲁斯篇》中 of erotic love in Plato's Phaedrus,
也有过类似论述 when in the act of recollection
通过所爱之人的美 through the beauty of the beloved,
回忆起神圣之物时 the lover is driven back to that experience
爱人被带回了 before we were embodied in mythical time
不受神话束缚的时候 when we had a fleeting vision of
那个时候他瞥见过 the sacred or most divine
圣洁的 最神圣 and most permanent objects of knowledge
最永恒的知识 as we spun around at the top of the world in the train of god.
那时我们作为神的随从在世界的顶端旋转 We talked earlier in Aristophanes's speech about the issue of
详细论述可参考课程第六集《费德鲁斯篇》苏格拉底的车夫演讲 whether we love a particular individual
在阿里斯托芬演讲中我们讨论过 or whether we love a type of human being.
我们爱的究竟是独一无二的个体 The ladder of love passage
还是一类人 pushes this question in a very potent way.
关于爱之阶梯的段落 Many readers of this passage feel that
又将这个问题推向深入 the ascent of the lover from
很多人读了之后都感到 the love of one particular beloved
一个人 toward the love of something that looks as abstract
从爱一个特定的对象上升到 as the sacred or highest objects of Platonic knowledge
爱一种特别抽象的东西 whatever they may be
比如柏拉图式哲学的神圣至高的目标 it looks like the ascent is primarily
或者其他抽象的东西 an ascent into impersonality,
这种上升根本而言 so that by the time we are at the top,
脱离了人的范畴 the beloved is no more than one drop
因此当我们上到顶端时 in the great sea of beauty
我们所爱的东西就像 as Diotima describes it.
狄奥提玛描述的那样 But it's important to remember that
不过是爱之海洋中的一滴水 one result of making this erotic ascent
但我们必须要记住 is the profound desire for creativity with someone we love,
情爱上升的结果之一 a creativity that maybe primarily
是产生一种与所爱的人进行创造的强烈欲望 let's call it spiritual, or psychic,
这种创造欲首先 the pursuit of say philosophical conversation.
是精神的 心理的 But a pursuit that also has as its image
是对哲学对话的一种追求 the physical reproduction of children.
这种追求同时伴随着生理意象 So while it's true that there is a kind of depersonalizing
那就是生育孩子 or impersonal aspect of this erotic ascent,
因此尽管在这种情爱上升中 making this erotic ascent is supposed to produce
有脱离人的一面 the most intimate relationship that one could have
但这种上升却意在创造 with another human being.
一个人与另一个人可能产生的 That intimacy is predicated on the notion that
最亲密的关系 the truest self both of lover and beloved
这种亲密的内涵不难理解 is something that must be achieved,
因为爱人和被爱之人最真实的自己 something that's never merely there to be discovered.
必须要靠追求才能获得 When we want to be most completely known,
而不是一直存在只需我们去发现 most exposed to, most naked
当我们想要被完全地了解 before the gaze of those we love,
完全地暴露在 we don't seek merely to be discovered in what we are now;
我们爱人的目光之下 rather we want to be seen with the eyes of the lover,
我们不只是希望他们发现现有的模样 the eyes of the lover that sees within us,
而是希望爱人通过他们的眼睛 at least as the Phaedrus claims,
通过他们看我们的眼睛 something more divine,
至少能看到像费德鲁斯所说的 than we ever would have seen in ourselves, unated.
更为神圣的东西 So, Socrates's speech,
是我们自己永远看不到的东西 the speech he learns from the woman Diotima,
因而苏格拉底的演讲 pulls together themes that have occurred
他从狄奥提玛那儿学来的演讲 in all of the preceding speeches.
将此前演讲中出现过的话题 It also touches on in its own way
都联系到了一起 a number of themes we've seen in Plato's Phaedrus.
它同时也以自己的方式 The challenge of whether love by being aspirational,
论述了《费德鲁斯篇》中的一些主题 will also be depersonalized, indeed, dehumanized,
爱如果要变得进取上进 is a challenge that Plato realizes.
是否也将脱离人甚至人性 And that concluding speech in the dialogue,
这个问题柏拉图是意识到的 the great speech of that wonderful drunk, Alcibiades
在对话最后的总结演讲 is Plato's attempt to meditate on
醉鬼亚西比德精彩的演讲中 the cause and benefits of an aspirational erotic life.
柏拉图试图分析 So when we return again to the Symposium,
上进的情爱生活的原因和好处 the Alcibiades's concluding speech,
所以我们下次回到《会饮篇》中 we'll also return to this set of issues.
亚西比德的总结演讲时 On Wednesday, I will be talking about a couple of
我们会继续讨论这些主题 passages from J. R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings along
下周三 我会讲一些 with some clips from the movie.
托尔金小说《指环王》中的段落 I will actually email you one extract from
同时看一些电影片段 the Lord of the Rings so that you can see that.
我会给大家发一份《指环王》的 Those of you who are unfamiliar with
摘要供大家准备 either the movie or the text,
就算大家 I think you'll still be able to
对电影或小说都不熟悉 find the primary themes intelligible.
也不会影响 See you then.
对一些基本主题的理解
下周见