首先 我想和大家探讨一下 So I want to begin by talking about
耶稣为童女所生 the virgin birth of Jesus
上帝作为父亲的身份 这些问题 and the fatherhood of God and so on
所以我需要稍微纠正一下 So I need to be able to give a slight correction
因为周一的课上我说 which I said that on Monday
基督教徒们都认为 that Christians understand
上帝就是耶稣的父亲 God to be the actual father of Jesus
是他的生父 in the biological sense
这种说法可能不准确 which is probably wrong
因为没有人认为上帝 Cos no one thinks that God
和玛利亚有过性行为 had sex with Mary
就是说正常的男女之间 the way a normal male has sex
的性行为 是吧 with a normal female, right?
我们都知道 That we understand
事情并非如此 that's not what happened
如果你问我具体发生了什么 What did happen, you ask me
我也说不明白 Well, I can't tell you
究竟发生了什么 exactly what happened
这是基督教的迷的一部分 That's part of the Christian mystery
究竟如何理解我们所说的 of understanding what we mean
上帝的父亲身份 by the fatherhood of God
但有一点是肯定的 But we surely mean is that
玛利亚孕育和生育耶稣的过程中 Jesus conceived and bore Jesus
并没有我们所谓的 without the intervention, shall we say
人类父亲插手 of a human father
所以我们基本上 Yes, so that I think has minimal
不用担心和基督教义有什么矛盾 or we can say, without fear of contradiction
也不用害怕我们会 Or that's getting lost in
迷失在基督教义的百转曲折之中 the twists and turns of Christian theology
那么究竟 You know, what exactly
上帝是如何成为父亲的 how the fatherhood of God actually works
这个问题我就让 That's a question I'll leave
其他人来解决吧 for others to determine
但我知道在许多中世纪的经典文献中 I do know that many medieval classics
作者都认为玛利亚是通过耳朵受孕的 argue that Mary conceived through her ear
通过听见上帝的旨意 By hearing the word of God, right?
耳朵是她受孕的器官 So it's the ear, it's the organ of reception
好了到此为止 Okay, that's all
大家不要问我这个问题了 Don't ask me about that
这个问题就放在一边了 I will leave it alone now
好的 Okay, yes, so
现在我们继续 So let's move along
我们所感兴趣的是耶稣作为大卫后裔 We are interested in Jesus as Davidic
作为大卫家室的一员 Jesus as a member of the Davidic house
或者被认为是出身于 or believed to be from
皇家的 古代皇家以色列族系 the royal, the old royal Israelite line
也就是大卫家族 namely from the house of David
福音书中 And the Gospels
尤其是马太福音和路加福音 especially Matthew and Luke
对耶稣的出身 which report these two
有两种描述 statements about origins of Jesus
逻辑上两者之间 which logically are incompatible
是有矛盾的 with each other
但当然了 宗教意识很浓的信徒们 But of course, religiously minded people
从来都不觉得协调这些 never have trouble reconciling that
哲学家和神学家认为矛盾的陈述 which philosophers and theologians
是什么问题 find incompatible
哲学家要求叙事的系统化和前后一致 who demands systematization and consistency
但是教徒们总能想出办法调和 But religious minded are always capable of
不管是犹太教 基督教 伊斯兰教 adjusting whether it's Jewish, Christian, Islamic
甚至我觉得印度教 佛教 道教 And I assume, Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist
也是如此 or whatever
那么和两种矛盾 So, what are these two contradictories
也不能说是矛盾 not contradictory, no, no
就是两种相互有出入的 these two statements which seem to be
事实陈述是什么呢 at odds with one another
一方面 On the one hand
马太福音和路加福音都有宗谱 Matthew and Luke have genealogies
追溯耶稣的大卫家室血脉 of Jesus back to David
而其中通过约瑟 through Joseph
约瑟就是玛利亚的丈夫 Joseph is the husband, or would be
或者说当时还是未婚夫 soon-to-be husband of Mary
如果耶稣是通过正常的 And if this were normal biological
肉体结合而生产出的 marriage and human reproduction
约瑟就是耶稣的父亲 He would have been the father
而我们则被告知 except that so we are told
耶稣是大卫家室的后人 Jesus is out of the Davidic line
如果你反对这种说法 and if you object
教授 你周一的时候告诉过我们 But professor, you told me on Monday
大卫家族再没有人 that we don't have Davidic pretenders
生活在犹太社会了啊 running around Jewish society
这已经几百年过去了 一直没有人 Centuries have gone by since last time
看到甚至声称看到 anybody saw or even claimed to see
大卫家族的后人 a member of the Davidic house
怎么突然之间 How come all of a sudden
五百多年了 500 years or so after
大卫家室都毫无踪影 the disappearance of the Davidic house
突然之间我们就有了个 All of a sudden we find a
有史料记载的大卫家室的 documented pedigreed descent
宗族后人 from the house of David?
这个你怎么解释呢 教授 How do you explain that, professor?
不知道 I can't
我只能说 I can simply say
早期的基督教徒认为 Christians, early Christians believed
耶稣来自大卫家室 that Jesus was from the house of David
而他们也写出宗谱 And they produced genealogy
来支持自己的观点 to back it up
事实上 这两个 In fact the two genealogies
马太和路加的宗谱 of Matthew and Luke
也不是完全一致的 don't fully agree with each other
而这还只是小问题 is a small problem
但是大家不用担心 But not to worry
基督教的圣经注释家 Christians' scriptural exegetes
可是比 are no less talented than
拉比圣经注释家更有才 rabbinic scriptural exegetes
他们找到了一些方法 and they have found ways of
来协调两种宗谱 reconciling the two pedigrees
要不是他们这种解释 which seem to be otherwise
两种宗谱就不一致 还矛盾重重 inconsistent and contradictory
大家就不用操心了 Not to worry
这是一方面 That's on the one hand
而另一方面福音书也说 On the other hand the Gospels
其实还是马太和路加 again Matthew and Luke also say
约瑟并非耶稣的 that Jesus does not have Joseph
生身父亲 as his "Real Father"
因为玛利亚怀孕的时候 cos Mary was pregnant
约瑟还没碰过她 before Joseph came near her
那么谁才是耶稣的生父呢 So that case who is the father
答案 是上帝 Answer, it's God
这就是我们所谓的 Right? This is what we mean by
上帝的父亲身份 the fatherhood of God
圣灵感孕之说 immaculate conception, right?
玛利亚孕育耶稣 并没有受到 That Mary conceived without the intervention
正常人类父亲的干预 or presence of a regular, normal human father
马太和路加福音都引用了一段话 And both Matthew and Luke quote
老师又给大家讲冷笑话了 Oh, Shayan bad joke coming up
马太和路加福音引用了 Both Matthew and Luke quote
这个意味深长的文段 this very pregnant verse from
出自以赛亚书7:14 Isaiah 7:14, right
作为他们的证据 as the proof text, right?
用来证明 To fulfill, right
有童女怀孕 Behold, the virgin shall conceive
生子 and bear a son
弥赛亚说 Handles messiah
人要称他的名为以马内利 and you shall call his name Immanuel
以赛亚书7:14证明了这段话 That verse, right, Isaiah 7:14
因此马太福音援引这段话是为了说 So Matthew quotes Isaiah 7:14 to say
耶稣的诞生 that through the birth of Jesus
让这段预言得以实现 that verse is "Fulfilled"
我们之前曾经见到过这样的母题 Right? We've seen this motif already in before
以赛亚的预言 that the prophecy of Isaiah
正在等待 is waiting around
它被实现的时刻 for the time when it is fulfilled
等待它的真义呈现 its true meaning becomes apparent
而现在它的真义就得以呈现 And its true meaning becomes apparent now
因为我们理解了 When we understand
有童女怀孕 Behold, the virgin shall conceive
这就是玛利亚 That's Mary
刚才说的是马太福音 That's Matthew
而路加福音并不是 Luke doesn't quite
为我们描绘了一幅同样的图景 picture quite the same way
他倒是援引了同样的文段 He also quotes the same verse
然而在路加福音中 But in Luke
它只不过是在展现上帝的力量 it's simply a demonstration of God's power
大家看 童女也可以有孕 Look, even a virgin shall conceive
从而来展示圣灵的力量 Right, to display of divine might
圣灵的威力 and the divine power
非常有意思 Interesting point
这两部福音书都援引了以赛亚书7:14 so they both quote Isaiah 7:14
而马可与约翰福音就没有 Mark does not, and John does not
马可还不知道 Mark does not know about this
童女感孕 或者童女产子 immaculate conception or virgin birth
马可还不知道使用 Mark does not know the uses of
以赛亚书7:14 Isaiah 7:14 in this connection
这是一方面 That's on the one hand
马可福音是四部福音书中最早的一部 Mark being the earliest of the four gospels
马太和路加就使用了以赛亚书 Matthew and Luke have it
约翰也没有 and John does not
这可能是因为约翰对待耶稣 Probably because John sees Jesus
首先将他视为道 primarily as the logos
上帝 as God
圣灵 as divine
这样什么父亲不父亲的 In which case this paternity thing is
就没有任何意义 管他呢 a moot question, who cares?
大家这里有问题吗 Okay, you have questions on this?
或者这里有没有基督徒 Or any of you good Christians in the room
给我纠正一下错误 can correct any mistakes
刚才我可能不小心说错了什么 I may have just made unwillingly
童女感孕在天主教中指玛利亚(而非耶稣) 受孕经过正常的性交 但没有原罪 Let's look at that verse Isaiah 7:14
我们来看一下以赛亚书7:14 which will now, because of its use
因为这个文段在 in Matthew and Luke
马太和路加中的使用 because of its connection with the notion
因为它与玛利亚的童女受孕 of the immaculate conception of Mary
这一说法联系起来 This verse now will resonate for centuries now
这段话在几百年的时间内会被反复传送 in Jewish, Christian discourse
犹太教 基督教都是如此 Right, what do we do with this verse?
那我们用这段话来做什么呢 Isaiah 7:14
以赛亚书7:14 Which for Christians, it's proof
对基督教徒来说 这是证明 that Jesus was born of a virgin
证明耶稣由童女所生 Alright, and Jews will
因此犹太人会 Well, what Jews will do with this?
犹太人会怎么样呢 One of the, one thing we know for sure
有一点我们是肯定的 The Chrisitans are wrong, right?
基督教徒肯定是错误的 This is the way these things work
事情就是如此 This is the logic of these arguments
这就是这些论调的逻辑所在 So let's look and see, and
那我们现在来看一下这段话 Very luckily for us, our friend Justin
我们很幸运 因为我们的朋友游斯丁 and his foe, Trypho
和他的敌人特来弗 spent several pages discussing Isaiah 7:14
用了好几页书来讨论以赛亚书7:14 And that, so it's fun to see
读起来也很有意思 And this will now, this debate will now
而这场辩论即将 play itself out over and over again
在接下来的几百年中 over following centuries
反反复复地出现 So Isaiah 7:14
以赛亚书7:14 Let's begin with the, so the verse itself
那我们首先看看这段话本身 The verse itself, translated by the
这段话经由 ancient Jewish-Greek translators
古代的犹太-希腊语翻译 reads behold, the virgin shall conceive
译为 必有童女怀孕生子 Right, translated the word
也就是说 翻译中 virgin as Parthenos
将童女一词译为Parthenos Like Parthenon, right
和帕台农神殿的Parthenon是一个词源 The virgin goddess
女神的意思 However, as Hebrew scholars notice right away
然而希伯来语的学者马上就注意到 That's not exactly what Isaiah
这并非以赛亚书 says in Isaiah 7:14
以赛亚书7:14的原句 He does not use the word Betulah, virgin
书中没有使用Betulah一词 which is the regular Hebrew word for virgin
这就是希伯来语中一般用来指代童女的词 namely a sexually inexperienced girl
也就是没有性经历的女孩 He uses, rather, a word Almah
他用的是Almah一词 which simply means a young woman
这就仅仅是指一个年轻的女人 and her sexual experience is
而她有没有性经历 none of your business, alright?
就不管你的事了 That's what the word is about
词中没有暗含这层意思 the word simply refers to youth
这个词仅仅意味着年轻人 or blooming, that's of youth
朝气蓬勃的年纪 青年 The same word could have
同样的一个词还可以 appeared in male form Elem
以阳性出现Elem to refer to a young man
指代年轻的男性 to a youth, to youth
男青年 So Isaiah simply says
因此以赛亚书仅仅说 Behold, the young woman
必有童女 shall conceive and bear a son
怀孕生子 which is not particularly miraculous at all
这就没有什么神奇的了 Except that of course
不过话说回来 Any process of birth is
生育的过程是 actually quite miraculously
充满了神奇的 speaking as a father of four
我有四个孩子 I can tell you it is
这点我可以肯定 the whole thing is quite miraculous
整个过程都非常神奇 But that's not what we mean here
但是这并不是我们这里谈论的 Right, it's a normal thing for young woman
对于年轻的女性来说 to conceive and bear a child
怀孕生子是非常正常的事情 Well, women do this all the time, right
一直都有女人怀孕生子啊 So that's what Isaiah says
以赛亚如是说 That interesting question is
那么有趣的问题就是 why did the ancient Jewish-Greek translators
为什么古代的犹太-希腊语翻译家 translate the word young woman, Almah
将Almah这个代表年轻女性的词 What possessed them to
是什么原因让他们 translate it Parthenos
将其翻译成Parthenos Answer, I don't know
我不知道 Answer, nobody knows
也没有人知道 What was going on in their minds?
他们当时是怎么想的 Except we can say even the word Parthenos
我们虽然可以说Parthenos can in Greek be used to
在希腊语中可以用来 refer to a young woman
指代年轻女性 not necessarily virginal
不一定是处女 Just as similar the way the word is used
就是类似意指年轻女性的用法 However, Parthenos surely can mean
然而 Parthenos可以用来指代 and often does mean
也经常用来指代 virgin, i.e., unmarried
处女 也就是说未婚的 So that's the word chosen
这是犹太-希腊语翻译 by the Jewish-Greek translators
选择的目标词组 of the so-called Septuagint
并写入了希腊语的译本 And that's what the Bible
而也正是这部圣经 that was read by Justin
为游斯丁所读 and the early Christians
为早期的基督徒所读 And that is, in the form of which this
这个词就是以这种形式 passage enters Jewish-Christian debate
进入了犹太教-基督教的争论之中 in the form of Behold, the virgin shall conceive
必有童女受孕生子 What does Isaiah really mean?
那么以赛亚书的真正意思是什么呢 Doesn't say virgin, just means a young lady
不是说童女 而就是指一位年轻女士 who is this mysterious young lady
这位年轻的女士又是谁呢 who'll conceive and bear a child
谁能受孕生子 And her pregnancy and birth
而她受孕生子 will be a divine sign
又是神圣的标志 That, Ahaz, the king has nothing to worry about
国王亚哈斯不用担心 He's creaking in his boots
他现在吓得够呛 That something terrible is gonna happen
觉得有什么不好的事情要发生 Or kings ganging up on him
或者其他的王要联手铲除他 He's afraid he's gonna be destroyed
他担心自己要遭到不幸 Isaiah the prophet reassure this king Ahaz
先知以赛亚安慰国王亚哈斯 Not to worry, all will be well
不要担心 一切都会好的 And here's the sign, all will be well
这就是标志 一切都会好的 Behold, the virgin, sorry
必有童女 不对 the young lady shall conceive
年轻的姑娘受孕 and bear a child
生子 and you'll see by the time
到时候你就会看到 the child is born and is winged
孩子出生时带有双翼 Everything will be fine
一切都会好的 Just relax, Ahaz
亚哈斯 放宽心 God has everything under control
一切都在上帝的掌控之中 Not to worry
不用担心 That's the passage
就是这段话 That's the passage
就是这段话 So who is this young lady who's bearing a child
那么谁是这里面的年轻姑娘 要受孕 and whose conception, birth
她受孕生子 is now a sign that God, from God
还是上帝的标志 Everything will be fine
说一切安好 Everything will be normal
一切均无大恙呢 So Bible scholars' usual
圣经学者们通常 point to either this Mrs. Ahaz herself
认为这是指亚哈斯的王后 Mrs King, Mrs Ahaz
王后 亚哈斯夫人 And/or maybe it's the wife of the prophet
或者是指先知的妻子 Mrs. Isaiah, right?
以赛亚夫人 对吗 And the child born therefore
因此所诞之子 if it's Mrs Ahaz
按照亚哈斯夫人的推论 the child she bears is Hezekiah
他的孩子就是希西家 who is a king, who will succeed Ahaz
他也是一名国王 将会继承亚哈斯 Hezekiah is a good king
希西家是一个不错的国王 You look at the Book of Kings, right
如果大家看列王记 they all between good kings and bad kings
其中都是一些好国王与坏国王的故事 Hezekiah is one of the good guys
希西家就是一个好人 So that's the birth of King Hezekiah
这就是希西家王的身世 That's most modern Bible scholars argue that
大部分现代圣经学者都这么认为 And none of us would admit its
没有一个人愿意承认 plain historical boring meaning of the passage
这段文字的枯燥的原本意义 And the passage only gets exciting
而这段文字之所以引起我们的兴趣 because of the Greek translators
也是拜希腊语翻译所赐 and then its use in Christianity
而这段翻译还被用在了基督教中 Look at the footnote
大家请看脚注 Even if it really means
即便它真的是说 Parthenos really means virgin
即便Parthenos真的是在说童女 I wonder if they simply mean
我也不确定是不是简单地说 Behold, the virgin shall conceive
必有童女受孕生子 we all know what a virgin
我们都知道童女 has to do to conceive
要怎样才能受孕 And by the time she conceives
而当童女受孕之时 she's no longer a virgin, right
她也就不是童女了 This I might say
我觉得 might be the simplest way to take
这可能是最简单的解读方式 even the Greek passage
即便希腊文翻译也是这样 But that just
但是不过 I'll just leave that open
这个就留给大家思考吧 Okay, let's now see what Justin
我们现在来看看游斯丁 and Trypho do with this
和特来弗是如何争论的 So Trypho, here is these Christian arguments
这里所说的就是基督教的论点 and Justin here is echoing
而游斯丁响应的 not Matthew and Luke
并非马太和路加 None of their thinking actually
两人的争论中其实并没有 has Matthew or Luke
涉及马太和路加 But Justin clearly knows this tradition already
但是游斯丁显然早就知道其中的传统 that Isaiah 7:14 proves the virgin birth of Jesus
以赛亚及7:14证明了耶稣为童女所生 Here is one of the few cases
很少有类似这样的机会 where Trypho the Jew actually
犹太人特来弗真正 gets a chance to open his mouth
有机会发言 and say something intelligent
说出一些真正有见解的看法 Remember, Justin is writing the books
大家别忘了游斯丁是这部书的作者 he gets to control the whole argument
他要掌控整个讨论的导向的 But here he actually gets Trypho
但是这里他却让特来弗说了 some good arguments
一些不错的观点 So what does Trypho say
那么特来弗在听到 when he hears this from Justin
游斯丁的话之后如何回应呢 He has three arguments
他提出了三个论点 First, the passage says young woman, not virgin
首先 文本中说的是年轻女人 而非童女 I say Trypho, check
特来弗 说的好 and get them that one
一语中的 A son refers to Hezekiah, son of Ahaz
这里的 子 指代的是希西家 亚哈斯之子 not to a figure centuries later
而不是说几百年之后 This is probably always fulfillment prophecies
先知书一般都是应验的预言 that if the passage is fulfilled
如果说这个预言要等到 by the arrival of Jesus
耶稣降临才能应验 but Isaiah is prophesizing around 700 BCE
那么以赛亚预言的事件是公元前700多年 and Jesus has come into the world
而耶稣降临要等到 let's say, around the year 0 CE
大约公元元年 There's no such thing, remember
其实根本没这种事 This can't be a time indicator, right
不能用这种方法计时的 So for 700 years the prophecy is unfulfilled
这样一来 700多年间预言都没有得到兑现 Nobody understands what it's talking about
没人知道以赛亚在说什么 So that's a small problem
我们就面对着这个 with these fulfillment prophecies
应验预言的小问题了 If you have to argue, and Christian do
如果你硬要说 其实基督教徒就是如此 even Isaiah himself does not fully understand
以赛亚本人都不明白 what he's talking about
自己在说什么 Or certainly, the hearers of Isaiah
那当然 以赛亚的听众们 had no idea what he was talking about
更不知道他说的是什么意思了 until it finally was fulfilled
直到七百年后 five, seven hundred years later
预言应验大家才明白的 Okay
好的 So son refers to Hezekiah
所以这里的子指代的是希西家 We'll see the same in Psalm 110 elsewhere
我们在诗篇110和其他地方也会看到同样说法 Last, Trypho's first point, almah, check
因此这就是特来弗的第一个观点 It actually may refer to King Hezekiah
子这里指代的是希西家王 Many modern scholars
许多现代圣经学者 would agree with Trypho
其实都同意特来弗的观点 Look at the notes in the JSB
大家可以看下犹太学习圣经的注释 it may in fact be the
可能的确刚才的观点 simple meaning of the passage, perhaps
就是这段文字的简单解释 Three, the Christian story
第三点 基督教的故事 sounds like Greek myths
听起来特别像希腊神话 Woo, that's a good one, right
这个观点很不错哦 Your Christian story, Trypho says
特来弗说 你们这些基督教的故事 sounds like all those stories
听起来就像我们 we heard in high school
高中听的那些 We read the Greek mythology
希腊神话中的故事 You know, Zeus can't resist
宙斯总是无法抗拒 whenever he sees a beautiful human female
他眼前的美丽的女人们 Right, insists upon having his way with her
和她们进行肉体上的结合 and of course, she gives birth to more gods
然后就生下了更多的神 Right, how many stories like that
我们是听过了多少类似的 do we have in Greek mythology
希腊神话的故事 A zillion, right?
数不清了 对吗 Of the Gods seducing, raping whatever
上帝勾引 强行 执意 consorting with human females
和女人发生性关系 and producing gods
然后生出更多的神 Well, that's exactly your story, Trypho says
特来弗说 这不就是您的故事吗 It's just a Greek myth
根本就是希腊神话 To my mind, Trypho's got 3 good arguments
我认为 特来弗这三个论点都很有力 Professor you are Jewish
教授您是犹太人 Of course you have prejudice
当然您有偏见了 Yes, I know
是啊 我知道 I still think Trypho has 3 good arguments
但是我还是认为特来弗这三个论点很不错 And it is an unusual case
而且我们很少能看到 where Justin lets him have three arguments
游斯丁让特来弗说出三个不错的观点 Not to worry, our friend Justin
不过大家不用担心 游斯丁 is up to the challenge
能够应对挑战 And let's see how he had beats back
那我们就看看他是如何回击 Trypho the Jew
犹太人特来弗的 The passage does say virgin
文章中说的就是童女 They got you a Greek Bible and you'll see
他们拿来一本希腊圣经给你看 It says Parthenos
上面写的Parthenos what do you want from me?
你还想要我怎么样 It says Parthenos
白纸黑字写着Parthenos And don't confuse you with this Hebrew stuff
你们别和希伯来圣经的内容搞混了 And the Hebrew doesn't say virgin
而且希伯来语中没有说童女 It's only because you Jews
还不是因为你们犹太人 have tempered with Scripture
篡改了圣经 in order to remove a proof text
来隐藏掉其中的证据 from the truth of Christianity
掩盖基督教的真实历史 Now those of you who are
既然如此 conspiracy theory bucks
你们这些阴谋论者们 will no doubt find this
肯定会觉得 very attractive explanation
这种解释方式很有意思 Alright, do you think Lilah Viazor
你认为Lilah Viazor was not acting alone?
不是的单独行动吗 Then you will also be convinced
那你肯定也认为 that the Jews have tempered with
犹太人篡改了 the text of Scripture
圣经的文本 in order to remove from it
为了从中移除掉 a clear, overt, obvious proof
非常明显的证据 of the truth of Christianity
来证明基督教的真实 Alright
好的 What can I say?
那我又能说什么呢 That's either a convincing argument or not
说它可信也好 不可信也罢 Next bullet point
下一个重点 Isaiah 8 shows that Isaiah 7
以赛亚书8证明了以赛亚书7 cannot be talking about Hezekiah
不可能是在讨论希西家王 Okay, now we get to a complicated
现在我们面对着一个非常复杂的 Scriptural argument
圣经观点 which I don't want to decipher
我现在还不想给大家解读 Which Isaiah, Justin argues
游斯丁说 It can't be really Hezekiah
这不可能是希西家王的 You think it's Hezekiah
你们以为是希西家 it doesn't fit the prophecies, so
但是这就和先知书的内容不符了 You know, with this young man is going to
文中所说的这个年轻人 be said to be doing is not
他要做的事情 what Hezekiah did
并不是希西家要做的 Trust me on this
大家相信我这一点 There's a series of more verses
还有很多文段都会 you'll throw that to
跟你们说明这一点 Read it carefully, you'll see
大家如果仔细品读 It's, you know, it's tricky, okay
就会发现其中很复杂的 Next point
下一点 which I find the most interesting one of all
我觉得这一点是最有意思的 You say the Christian story
你说基督教的故事 sounds like the Greek myth
听起来像希腊神话 Justin says, you are right
游斯丁说 没错 It sounds like the Greek myth
就是像希腊神话 Where do you think
不然你们觉得 the Greek myth come from?
希腊神话是哪儿来的呢 The Greek myth were put there by the devil
希腊神话都是由魔鬼故意编造出来的 for the sole purpose of testing the faithful
就是为了测试你们是否忠诚 Namely, the devil puts those stories there
也就是说 魔鬼编造出神话故事 So that Christians may be misled
所以基督教徒们可能会受到误导 by looking at them and thinking
看到这些故事就会想 that the Christian stories
基督教故事 are just like the Greek myth
和希腊神话差不多 And consequently are no greater via
既然如此是从希腊神话而来的 the Greek myth
就没什么大不了的 Whereas of course we know
但是我们当然知道 that the Christian story is a true one
基督教故事是真实的 and the Greek myths are of course
而希腊神话当然就是 completely false and empty
胡言乱语 空洞不实 And they are there
他们之所以在此 scattered by the devil in anticipation
就是魔鬼所做 完全是为了 precisely to try to mislead Christians
试图误导基督徒 I find this absolutely brilliant argument
我觉得这种说法很聪明 I didn't say I'm convinced by it
不是说我就相信了 I just say it's actually a brilliant argument
就是我觉得这种说法很聪明 Justin is grappling with this problem
游斯丁面对着这样的问题 that in fact some parts of Christian beliefs
就是说一些基督教的信仰 set of beliefs in fact comes out of
其实是来自于 the Greek and Norman world
希腊和北欧世界 that we would call pagan world
也就是我们所谓的异教徒世界 But there is a way of explaining this
但是对此有一种解释 is this brilliant idea that
就是这种聪明的方法 yes, there are parallels that are real parallels
的确他们是有相似之处 But they are there on purpose by the
但是它们是故意被放置在此 set there by the devils to mislead you
是魔鬼们用来误导 to seduce you astray
引诱你背叛的 to make you doubt the truth of Christianity
让你怀疑基督教的真实性 And resist
从而反抗 Okay
好的 This argument will recur in later Christianity
这种观点会在之后的基督教中重复出现 I think it's an extraordinarily clever one
我认为这种说法非常聪明 So summary
所以总结一下 Justin says Isaiah 7:14 says
游斯丁认为以赛亚书7:14说 Behold, the virgin shall conceive
必有童女受孕 and bear a son
生子 That son is Jesus
子就是耶稣 Who's both God and human
耶稣既是神也是人 And so far as he is human
而他作为人的一面看来 he was born of a normal human mother
有一般意义上的人类母亲 even though he did not
即便他并没有 have a normal human father
一般意义上的人类父亲 That's what the verse is talking about
这就是这短话所说的意思 That is true, we Christians believe it
这是真实的 我们基督教徒对此笃信 and you Jews as usual
而你们犹太人和往常一样 reject and misinterpret the Scripture
拒绝接受 还对圣经加以误解 That's Justin
这就是游斯丁 I guess I should do us
我觉得现在我应该 a credit moment here
看看大家的反应 ask people if they are convinced by Justin
有多少人相信游斯丁 I didn't thought of doing that
我之前没有想过问同学们 But people like Justin Martyr?
但是大家被游斯丁说服了吗 Okay
好的 Yes, questions?
有问题吗 Is this last argument true?
最后的一个论点是真的吗 I think it's actually brilliant
我觉得很高明啊 I think it's really really clear
非常非常有想法 as far as I know it's original with him
这是游斯丁首次提出来的 It will recur later in Christian text
而且之后还会出现在基督教文献中 but I believe the verse
但是我认为这些话在这里 the first time here
是首次出现的 Here, that the devil has
魔鬼在这里 put and placed these things to seduce you
编造了这些故事 从而引诱你上当 The same way the devil
同样魔鬼还 has planted dinosaur bones
在地球各处放了恐龙化石 to make you think the world is
让你认为世界有 millions of years old
几百万年的历史 Right, that argument recurs still
这样的观点当今依然存在 Okay, any questions, observations?
好的 还有什么问题 看法 Corrections?
或者对我的更正吗 Yes, Yoni
这位同学 What does Justin do with the fact that
那么游斯丁对于 this child conceived by the virgin
童女之子的名字 is named Immanuel rather than Jesus?
叫以马内利而非耶稣有什么解释 Because Immanuel, yes
因为以马内利 That's not his real name
并不是这个孩子的真名 You know, Immanuel means God with us
以马内利的意思是上帝与我们同在 So God with us is Christ
而上帝与我们同在是基督 God with us
上帝与我们同在 That's no problem
这不是大问题 Yes, Chris
Chris同学 Justin gets around the idea
游斯丁规避这个 that young woman vs. Virgin
年轻女人和童女的讨论 just by saying that she's not
就是说她不是童女 It says in the Greek version
希腊语的版本上是这么说的 and that's the real text
而这才是原文 But how does it not become an issue
那这怎么能不是一个问题呢 There some other versions
因为还有其他的版本 That's not become an issue
这个怎么能在之后的 in the arguments later
讨论中不构成障碍呢 Well, Justin knows that
游斯丁知道 Yes, so that's the standard Jewish reply
这就是非常标准的犹太人对于 to all these Christian arguments
基督教论点的回复方式 It doesn't say virgin
文中没有说童女啊 I'm sorry, just it doesn't say virgin
不好意思 就是没有说童女 It says young woman, that's all
说的是年轻的女人 就是这样 You know, from the Jewish side
从犹太教的角度来说 the argument is over
这场争论就结束了 There's nothing more to say
没有什么可说的了 It says a young woman
文中说的是年轻的女人 So modern Christians are aware of this
现代基督教徒对此心知肚明 And if you look at modern Christian Bible
如果大家看现代的基督教圣经 they will acknowledge that
他们其实会标注出来 this is a Christian interpretation of the passage
这其实是基督教对此的解读 not the actual reading of the passage
而不完全是原文的意义 Right, and as I said many times
其实我也跟大家说过许多次 Christians have the right to interpret
基督教徒有自己的权利 the passage as they wish, right
按照他们的想法解读圣经 But that's not what it actually says
但是这未必是圣经原来的意思 Justin has no Hebrew
而游斯丁不是希伯来人 So perhaps he's a little bit more
所以他可能对此有一些 defensive on that basis
顽固 固执 That's why he accuses the Jews of
因此他谴责犹太人 tempering with Scripture
篡改圣经文本 I think it's a pretty desperate kind of argument, I think
我觉得这种说法就有点强词夺理了 Yes, David?
David请讲 Justin's conflating the idea of
游斯丁将两种概念 virgin and young woman
童女和年轻女人融合在一起 is a little bit less egregious
这其实没有那么过分 if we understand the extension of virgin
如果我们理解童女的引申意义 and the extension of young woman
还有年轻女人的引申意义 would have overlapped a lot more at least
其实至少是有很大的重叠的 in, sort of, public perception
在公众对他们的感知上 as these were Parthenos, referring to them
因为用来指代的词语是Parthenos I suggest
我的看法 Okay, a lot of people have worked on this
其实很多人多研究过这个 What exactly are the
究竟这些词语的 implications of these terms
暗含意义是什么 What exactly is meant by Almah
Almah确切是什么意思 What is exactly is meant by betulah
Betulah确切是什么意思 Which would have been presumably
而Betulah被认为是 the Hebrew under Parthenos
Parthenos的希伯来语翻译 Yes, these questions have been
这些问题都已经被 discussed in endless detail
讨论了很久了 Yep
是的 We can talk more about this
我们可以就此继续讨论 but right I'll move along
但现在我要继续了 Look at the notes in the JSB
大家可以去读一下犹太学习圣经 And if you want, take out
如果还有余力 也可以找一本 you know, a catholic Bible with annotations
带注释的天主教圣经 and just see what a modern
看看现代的 catholic Bible would do with this
天主教圣经是如何解释此问题 Like the Jerome Bible Commentary
比如杰罗姆圣经评论 or something like that
之类的书 done by very famous scholars
都是非常著名的学者所著 I'm here to see what they say
我们要看看他们的观点 Okay, I've already talked about
好的 我们已经讨论过 two comings of Christ
基督的两次降临 And there's other observations on
还有一些其他观点 So Jesus is both Davidic
那么耶稣既属大卫家室 and both, I guess, divine
同时也是神 Superhuman, nonhuman
超人的 非人的 special kind of human
特别的一种人类 on the other hand, at the same time
两种形态同时存在 Two comings of Christ
基督两次降临 This is an important passage in Justin 52
这是游斯丁52章中非常重要的一段 where again, Justin here encapsulates
而在这里 作者总结了 what will become standard Christian theology
日后普遍所接受的基督教理论 So it has been foretold in Scripture
圣经中曾经预言 Once again, for Justin
游斯丁再次托出圣经 It's always important, Scripture
圣经对他总是非常重要的 Scripture, Scripture
圣经 圣经 That's what proves Christianity to be true
这是证明基督教之正确的有力工具 That's been foretold in Scripture, that
圣经中曾经预言 There would be two comings of Christ
基督将有两次降临 And the first he had to suffer
第一次要受难 And then after this coming
此次降临过后 your people, the Jews
你们这些犹太人 would have neither prophet nor king
便不再有先知抑或国王 the gentiles who believe in the suffering Christ
而相信基督受难的非犹太人 would look forward to his second coming
将期待他的第二次降临 So I divided this up into five points
我将这段话分为五点 now let's discuss these five points
现在我们就来讨论一下这五点 All of which become standard
这些在此后都成了 in Christian theology
基督教的标准理论 Two comings of Christ
基督的两次降临 why does Justin and for that matter
为什么游斯丁以及 all later Christians need
以后的基督教徒需要 two comings of Christ?
基督的两次降临 Somebody tells me
大家说说看 Why doesn't Christ just come once
为什么基督不只来一次 and get the job done?
把该做的事情做完呢 That's very dramatic, thank you, right
这个很有感觉 谢谢啊 Think about Scriptures
大家想想圣经 Scriptures, somebody tells me
圣经啊 有没有人回答一下 It's not a trick question
这不是很难的 Why do, okay
为什么 好的 Remember we discussed on Monday
大家记不记得我们在周一讨论过 the Jewish side of things
犹太教对此问题的看法 The Jews are convinced that
犹太教徒深信 messiah has yet to come
弥赛亚还没有到来 because Scriptural promises
因为圣经中的 prophecies on the Jewish side
犹太教一面的预言 have not yet been fulfilled
还没有得到兑现 The Davidic king has to come back
大卫家室的王还要复辟 because God has promised that
因为上帝曾经承诺过 he'll be eternal king
大卫家室是永久的王 and all those messianic
而所有的弥赛亚 or end-of-day prophecies
或者是世界末日的预言 they have not yet come true
都还未实现 Rather than saying it will never become true
我们不会说这些预言永远不会实现 Cos God is a liar
因为上帝骗人的 or the prophets were not real man of God
或者这些先知并非上帝的人 We'd much rather say
我们倒不如说 they will come true some day
这些预言迟早会实现 Now look at the Christian side
那我们现在看看基督教的说法 Have all the messianic prophecies been fulfilled?
弥赛亚的预言得到兑现了吗 No
没有 But Jesus has already come once
但是耶稣已经降临一次了 We know that because the gospels tell us so
我们这样说 是因为福音书告诉我们如此 Therefore
那么 the only possible logical conclusion is
唯一的符合逻辑的解释就是 that there's gonna be two comings of Christ
基督会降临两次 The first one is the "Historical One"
第一次降临是过去式 which you read about in
我们在 Matthew, Mark, Luke and John
马太 马可 路加和约翰福音中都有读到 Or Justin write about it
游斯丁也有写过 no matter what he write
不管他写了些什么吧 He didn't have Matthew, Mark, Luke and John
他那时还没有四部福音书 he had something
但是他有材料 At least he knows the story
他知道这个故事 Knows that Christ came to the world
知道基督来到了这个世界 in which Christ was crucified, suffered and died
而在这个故事中 基督遭到迫害 受难而死 That he knows
他知道这个故事 By the same token, at the same side
而与此同时 还是在基督教的解读中 we still have all these unfulfilled
我们仍有一些没得到 prophecies over here
兑现的预言 So when and how are they gonna get fulfilled?
那么它们什么时候才能得到应验呢 When and how is God going to
上帝什么时候才能 redeem the promises?
兑现这些承诺呢 Answer, there's a second coming
答案是 还有第二次降临 It's the same logic as the Jewish logic
这和犹太教的逻辑是一样的 Or as Professor Cohen writes so tersely
就好像科恩教授给大家写的 about, right to the point
这些简明扼要的话 This belief allows Justin to combine
这样的信仰让游斯丁可以将 the historical experience of Jesus
耶稣的历史故事同 with the glorious prophecies of the Bible
圣经中辉煌的预言结合起来 The first time, he comes and suffers
第一次降临 他受尽苦难 and the next time
那么第二次 he's gonna come back in glory
他将带着荣耀回来 Okay, I believe in all versions of Christianity
我几乎可以相信基督教的所有版本 except perhaps for the most
不过要除了我曾经说过的 low-church type protestant I mentioned
最低教会派的清教的说法 that are barely Christian, right
他们其实都不太属于基督教 We have a strong belief in the second coming
我们笃信基督第二次降临 Christians in the room, is that correct?
教室里的基督教徒们 我说的对吗 Yes
对 Good
好的 B, first coming of Christ is
第二点 基督第一次降临 Christ has to suffer
必会受难 Christ suffers, you get it
基督受难 大家明白吧 that's the word Passion, remember, right
这就是Passion这个单词的本意 So Christ suffers on the cross
基督在十字架上受难 Right, that's the suffering of Christ
这就是耶稣受难 that brings about redemption
而这带来了救赎 and atonement from sin
和赎罪 We shall talk about next week
这点我们下周会讲 Christ had to suffer
耶稣必要受难 This is the suffering servant of Isaiah
这就是以赛亚书中所谓的 受苦的仆人 Christ had to sacrifice
基督必须要做出牺牲 Next week, that's all we'll talk about
下周我们也会讨论这一点 Will be all
都会讨论的 Okay, take care of that
好吗 我们下周解决 C, Justin says that after Christ has come
第三点 游斯丁说基督已经降临 After his coming, Jews would have
他降临之后 犹太教将 neither prophet nor king
没有先知或国王 This is a very interesting historical argument
这是一个非常有趣的历史观点 Which Justin associates with
游斯丁将此和 one of the most famous Christian
最有名的一段基督教中的 proof text in the Torah
Torah的文字联系起来 Isaiah 7:14, the virgin birth
以赛亚书7:14中讲述了童女产子 is one of the most famous proof text
这是先知书中 以赛亚书中 from the prophets, from Isaiah
最著名的一段证据文本 along with Chapter 53
同样还有第53章 which we'll talk about next week
我们下周再具体讲 From the Torah
而在Torah中 perhaps the single most famous
大概最有名的 Christian proof text is this one
基督教证据文本是 Genesis 49:10
创世记49:10 The scepter will not depart from Judah
王权必不离犹大 nor the ruler's staff from between his feet
御杖必伴他左右 until, and this is where the problem start
直到 现在我们就有问题了 until something
直到什么事发生 It's a very obscure Hebrew word
这里用了个十分含糊的希伯来词 Translated here
(希伯来语) Until he comes to whom it belongs
这里翻译成 Brackets, alternative translations
直到那位执掌王权的来到 Until Schiloh comes, capital S
括号里还有另外一种翻译 Justin, until those things that are
直到示罗来到 reserved for him shall have come
而游斯丁认为 直到那些 One can see already we got a problem here
为他而备之物的来到 Alright, different translators completely
大家可以看到这里已经有了难题 construe, commit it differently
不同的译者有对此有完全不同的 one from the other
翻译和解读 these mysterious Hebrew words
对这些希伯来语 and the obedience of nations is his
解释都不一样 Justin understands this to mean that
万民都必归顺他 this is Jacob blessing Judah
游斯丁认为这里的意思是 Judah is the forerunner of the house of David
雅各在保佑犹大 The Davidic line, the kingly line, the royal line
犹大就是大卫家室的先人 So he says that this means
大卫家室就是皇室 国王的家族 that scepter will not depart from Judah
他说这句话意味着 There will be continuous
王权必不离犹大 line of kings from Judah
也就是说犹大家族的国王 until Christ comes
是不会间断的 And once Christ has come, implication
直到基督降临 There will be no more kings
而基督降临时 就意味着 from the house of Judah
不再会有国王 cos he is the last one
从犹大家室走出 Therefore, there are no more kings
因为他是最后一个 and also no prophets too
因此不再会有国王 no more kings or prophets for Jews
也不再会有先知 after the arrival of Christ
基督降临之后 That's how Justin reads Genesis 49:10
就不再会有国王和先知 If you are interested in this
这就是游斯丁对创世记49:10的解读 Then I cannot resist quoting this book
如果大家对这个感兴趣 about this absolutely amazing book
我忍不住要给大家推荐一下这本书 by Adolf Posnanski
写得非常好 This is when Jews still had
作者是阿道夫 波斯南斯基 the first name of Adolf
当时犹太人还会 They don't any more, right
取名叫阿道夫呢 Who wrote this giant book of 800 pages or so
现在可不会了 in which he collets for you
他写了这么一本800多页的巨著 all the interpretations of Genesis 49:10
其中为大家收集了 in Hebrew, in Aramaean, in Greek, in Latin
所有对创世记49:10的解读 in Arabic, in Syriac, right?
有希伯来语 阿拉姆语 希腊语 拉丁文 He collets them for you
阿拉伯语 叙利亚语 gives you original text
都为大家总结了 gives you translation into German, of course
为你列出了原文 We are civilized people, we are German, right
然后当然给出了德语的翻译 into German, with notes, annotations, etc.
我们都是文明人嘛 德国人 showing what an extraordinary career
还给了标注 注释 等等 this verse had in Jewish Christian discourse
告诉大家这句话在犹太教和基督教文本中 from antiquity into the high middle ages
经历了一段多么不寻常的旅途 Why am I telling this to you?
从古代一直到中世纪鼎盛时期 You don't care
我跟大家说这个干啥 I just feel obligated to tell you
你们又不想听 It's just an amazing piece of scholarship
但是我就是觉得有义务告诉大家 written at an age before
这是一部非常好的学术著作 the work of computerized
撰写的年代 before the work of databases
还没有计算机化 before this man read everything
数据库还没有发明 Anyway, the point is
作者也无法读到所有的相关文献 This reading of this mysterious verse
总之我想说的是 is one out of dozens of different ways
这种对这些神秘文字的解读 in which these mysterious words were read
是许许多多解读之一 But for Justin at least, Genesis 49:10 proves
对这些神秘的文字有很多理解 that Christ is the last Jewish king
但是至少对游斯丁来说 创世记49:10证明 from the house of David
基督是最后一位出自大卫家室的 And after that Jews have no kings
犹太国王 What Jews said in response
此后犹太人再无国王 Jews looked desperately around
而犹太人怎么回应呢 for some king somewhere
他们费尽心机寻找 who is a Jewish king
在某个地方的某位 to prove this reading is false
犹太国王 Yes, we have found a
来证明这段解读是错误的 We have a king, we got kings
我们这儿找到了一位 We got a Jewish king in Yemen somewhere
我们有国王的 还好几位 Or there's a king over and across the mountains
我们在也门找到了一位犹太国王 There's ten lost tribes of kings
翻过那座山就有一位国王 We got kings, yep, that's okay
有十个与世隔绝的部落呢 That's you understand
我们反正有国王 好吧 That's a kind of argument
大家都懂的 That's C
就是这么一说 Paragraph D
这是第三点 Gentiles will believe in Christ
第四点 and repent of their sins
非犹太人会信奉基督 This is the whole point
从而赎罪 which we'll discuss
这个观点 well, next week and the week after
我们在下周 that the gentile church, the church of gentiles
和下下周即将讨论 ethnically non-Jews will replace the Jews
非犹太人的教会 非犹太教会 in the divine economy
也就是非犹太民族将会取代犹太人 The Jews are no longer God's chosen people
走入神的世界 It is those who believe in Christ
犹太人不再是上帝的选民 to constitute a new people
而是那些信奉基督的人们 and they are ethically gentile
构建了新的民族 Here Justin quotes a beautiful verse from Micah
他们并不属于犹太民族 With a parallel in Isaiah
这里游斯丁援引了弥迦书中的一段 It's really really a beautiful verse
在以赛亚书中也有照应 and this is how Justin understands it
写的非常华丽 In the days to come
游斯丁这样解读如下文段 Again, these are part of
在末后的日子里 the prophetic verses of conciliations
这又是用来调和的 which I already mentioned on Monday, right
预言文字中的一部分 There's disaster
我周一给大家讲过了 对吗 And then the prophet has
将有灾难 There is a future time
而预言也对此作出预测 when things will be a lot better
在未来的一个时间里 Right, after we've survived the disaster
世界将会变得更好 Then there is restoration
在我们幸免灾难过后 So in the days to come the mountain of
世界会恢复原样 the Lord's house shall be established as
在末后的日子里 the highest of the mountains
耶和华殿所在的山 shall be raised up above the hills
必超乎群山 People shall stream to it
高过众岭 and many nations shall come
万民都要归向他 many nations shall come and say
多国的民都要前来 Come
多国的民都要前来 说 let's go up to the mountains of the Lord
来吧 to the house of the Lord of Jacob
让我们登耶和华的山 he may teach us his ways
去雅各之上帝的殿 he may walk in his paths
他必指示我们当行的路 For out of Zion shall go forth instruction
我们也要遵行他的道 and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem
因为训诲必处于锡安 What is Zion?
耶和华的话语必来自耶路撒冷 What does Zion mean?
锡安是什么 Zion is the Biblical poetic name for Jerusalem
锡安是什么意思 Jerusalem is prose, Zion is poetry
锡安就是圣经中对耶路撒冷诗化的称法 So Zion is the name for the city of Jerusalem
耶路撒冷用于文章 锡安用于诗歌 out of Zion shall go forth instruction
锡安就是耶路撒冷这座城市的名字 The word for instruction is Torah
因为训诫必出于锡安 and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem
(希伯来语) He shall judge between many peoples
训诲所用的词是Torah and shall arbitrate between strong nations
耶和华的话语必来自耶路撒冷 they shall beat their swords into ploughshares
他要在各民族中实行审判 and their spears into pruning hooks
为远方的强国断定是非 It's a beautiful and famous line
他们要把刀剑铸成犁头 Nations shall not lift up swords against nation
把矛枪打成镰刀 Neither shall they learn war any more
写得非常优美 This for Justin is part of the glorious future
国与国之间不再动刀枪 What does it mean when all the nations
也不再学习战争 come streaming to Jerusalem
这在游斯丁看来是辉煌未来的一部分 What does that mean, class?
当他说多国的民 Well, if you are a Christian, that's obvious
都要前来 是什么意思 Right, all the nations meaning
同学们 他是什么意思呢 All the nations, everybody
如果你是基督徒 那意思就很明显 Jews are lost out, right?
多国的民就是 They'll come streaming to Jerusalem
多国的民 所有人民 in this period of restoration
犹太人已经被抛弃了 in the days to come, right
多国的民要前来耶路撒冷 to hear the word of the Lord
在末后的日子里 Isaiah in Jerusalem
在未来的日子 which you might interpret
来聆听耶和华的训诲 spiritually, metaphorically
在耶路撒冷听以赛亚的预言 or as we'll see in a couple of minutes
你可以将这句话解读为 You might interpret it literally
精神意义 比喻意义 So the gentiles come to receive
或者我们马上就会看到 the word of god
你也可以将它解读成字面意义 then incorporating the church
因此非犹太人前来接受 Justin says, like me, I'm a gentile
耶和华的训诲 But look, I receive the word of Lord
然后将其和教会融合在一起 fulfilling what, the Scripture
游斯丁说 我就是非犹太人 or this prophecy of Scripture
但是我就接受了上帝的训诲 is in the process of fulfilment
来兑现圣经 Last but not least
或者是圣经的预言 Christ will return in glory
正在兑现的过程中 The first coming of Christ was as a human
最后一点 condemned to the cross, suffered and dies
基督会带荣耀而归 But the second coming
基督的第一次降临是作为人 will be the coming in glory
被钉在十字架上 受难而死 Here we have a complicated passage
但是第二次降临 involved in Daniel 7
他将带着荣耀 and I didn't ask you to read it
这里有一段非常复杂的文字 because it's too complicated
出自但以理书7 But anyway Daniel 7 provides the image
我没有让大家读这段话 for the Christ's coming in the clouds
因为这太复杂了 Christ coming down in the clouds
但是但以理书7为大家描述了 That image will be found in
基督乘云而来的图景 the Book of Revelation of John
基督乘云降临人间 in the New Testament
这样的图景也可以在 Announced by Elijah
约翰的启示录中找到 fulfilling the Biblical prophecies
在新约中 Death will not have power
这是由以利亚所宣布 over those who believe in him
来兑现圣经的预言 This, I believe, is not just Justin talking
死亡对信仰基督的人们 This is, as we will call, Christianity
不再有力量 The idea that Christ is king
我认为这不再单纯的是游斯丁的观点 from the house of David, line of Judah
而是我们将来所谓的基督教 the last of the kings of the house of Judah
这种观点说基督是国王 Christ has come once to suffer and die
来自大卫家室 犹大家室 will come again, in glory
是犹大家族最后一名国王 Thereby fulfilling all those passages of restoration
基督降临 受难而死 which I mentioned, you'll find in Scripture
还会再次带着荣耀而来 and the gentiles will stream to this
从而兑现大卫家室复辟的预言 church, to this religion
这些大家在圣经中都可以找到 and thereby becomes real people of God
而非犹太人将归向他 That is, I believe, classical Christianity
归向这种宗教 And here Justin lays it out for us
从而成为上帝真正的子民 You have questions or
我认为这就是经典的基督教 they tell you something different
这里游斯丁已经为我们摆明了观点 in the Hebrew school?
大家有问题吗 Not Hebrew school, Sunday school
或者你曾经在希伯来学校中 Hebrew school didn't tell you about this stuff
听到过不同的解释 Sunday school
不是希伯来学校 主日学校 They teach you something different
希伯来学校才不会涉及这些内容 in Sunday school?
主日学校 Questions?
主日学校中有没有 Miss Michelle Kelly didn't explain things this way
一些不同的内容 She explained it differently
有问题吗 Anybody?
某位老师说的跟您不一样 Yes, sir
她给了我们另一种解释 I can volunteer that Luke has special
有吗 address on this relationship with Davidic
这位同学 Oh really, so the Davidic ancestry
我想说下路加福音 is not played up being
特别提到过和大卫家族的关系 They mentioned that
是吗 所以你认为大卫家室祖先 There's something about, like
没有得到上帝的 Don't going to bath in the first place
文中提到过 first senses
有一些这样的内容 Right, that's in Luke
首先不要去洗澡 Yes, Joseph is from the house of David
最开始时 And then, that's about it
没错 这是路加福音 that they didn't explain
约瑟也是来自来自大卫家室 That's it?
就说了这么些 I mean, in the Catholic we know these
也没有解释 Cos you've got to get the house of David to
就这些 I mean, that's part of
我的意思是一些天主教徒知道这个 what makes Jesus who he is
但是你必须要追溯到大卫家室 He's the king from the house of David
我是说 这其实是 But that's not, apparently
构成耶稣身份的一部分 That doesn't sell any more
他是来自大卫家室的国王 And then something about
但是很明显 Yes, they say that he is
大家现在都不买账了 the descendent of the King David
文中还说了一些 but like
没错 他们说耶稣是 That's it
大卫王的后裔 Interesting
但是 Yes, Malie
就这么些 I disagree, I think
有意思 I don't know, I went to catholic school
Malie同学 We had a reading every year
我不同意这种说法 you know that he was the father of him
我是读过天主学校的 he was the father of him
我们每年都要读一些材料 Yes, the genealogies, yes
甲是乙的父亲 Yes, we always hate that readings, it's long
乙是丙的父亲 and you know, there's weird names, right
就是族谱嘛 是的 You know, you emphasize such these things
我们总是特别讨厌这些阅读 特别长 When was that reading done?
人名还奇奇怪怪的 Is it part of a Christmas?
但是有一些内容是反复强调的 I think it's a must every year
你们一般都什么时候读 I'm not sure when the time is
是圣诞节吗 Is that Christmas time with the birth of Jesus
我记得好像是每年都读 or where it would be?
也不确定具体时间了 Maybe
是不是圣诞节 正好耶稣诞生 Okay
或者能是什么时候呢 Okay, anybody else has any testimony?
可能吧 Yes, David
好吧 There are other passages in
其他同学有什么证据吗 the so-called New Testament
David同学 where he is referred to he's a prince of peace
还有一些其他的段落 That's from Isaiah, that's Isaiah 11
是出于所谓的新约 These sort of
基督被称为和平之主 or 7, sorry it's 7, sorry
这是出自以赛亚书11的 are repeated elsewhere in the New Testament
这些称号 Yes, this title is repeated, that's Isaiah 7, right
不好意思 是第7章 Yes, there's a whole series of titles are given
在新约的其他部分也曾经重复使用 I'll mentioned that in a second
没错 称谓被重复 以赛亚书7 We can't deal all the titles
(希伯来语) But it comes out of prophecies
书中给了耶稣一系列的称谓 Okay, so here I come down to
我们马上就会说到 I left Justin behind
但我们也不能逐个称谓都解释 I think he's been a faithful shepherd
不过都是来自于先知书 and a trustworthy guy
好的 我们已经讲到 to what will become Christianity
现在我们先不说游斯丁 on these points
我认为他是一位非常忠诚的牧羊人 Now I'll just briefly see
值得相信的人物 some of these main points about
促成了之后的基督教 how Christianity interprets these beliefs
从以上观点可以看出来 Christ is king of the Jews
现在我们就简单 Alright, the notion that Christ is king
介绍一下要点 It remains a firm part of Christian theology
基督教是如何解读这些信条的 Here I'll have a quick show-and-tell
基督是犹太的王 So I explained INRI on the course page
基督是王这种说法 But here is one example out of hundreds
是基督教理论中非常重要的一部分 Right? Where at the crucifixion scenes
下面我给大家做个简单的展示 depicted by the old masters
我在大家的讲义上已经解释了INRI As a rule, right, above the cross is
这幅图是众多例子中的一个 are these letters INRI, I-N-R-I
这是十字架处决的场景 which stands for
由古代艺术家所作 Iesvs Nazarenvs Rex Ivdaeorvm
一般来说 十字架上都会 Jesus the Nazarene, King of the Jews
刻上这些字母 INRI All the gospels tell us that
它的全称是 this was a pact
Iesvs Nazarenvs Rex Ivdaeorvm that was affixed to the cross
犹太人的王 拿撒勒人耶稣 Pact was affixed to the cross
所有的福音书都告诉我们 according to Gospel of John
这是一个契约 It's in Latin, Greek and Hebrew
被刻在十字架上 And some artists try to present all three
刻在十字架上的契约 But the standard way to present it is
约翰福音如是说 that Jesus is king of the Jews
以拉丁文 希腊文 希伯来文呈现出来 Rex Ivdaeorvm
一些艺术家想要呈现出三种语言 That's something Justin would certainly agree
但是标准的呈现方式还是 Right, the last king of the line of David
耶稣是犹太人的王 We'll come back and talk about
Rex Ivdaeorvm the crucifixions more
游斯丁一定同意这一点 And next week, I just wanna
他是大卫家室的最后一位国王 bring it to your attention the most
我们将来还会讨论 So INRI you'll find anywhere?
十字架处死的问题 You'll find it in hundreds of places
下周我将会 I mean, virtually every old master
给大家讲 depicting Christ on the cross
那么INRI会在哪儿看到呢 will have INRI
你可以在很多地方看见这几个字 in some way or another on the top
基本上所有的古代艺术家 This is done by Andrea Mantegna
在描绘十字架上的耶稣时 The scene follows
都会用INRI circumcision of Christ scene
把这几个字放在十字架的上方 that we looked at a couple of weeks ago
这幅画是安德里亚 曼坦那的作品 Anyway, I just wanna bring your attention to
描述的是 a couple of, a little brief features
耶稣被钉在十字架上 which we'll look at for next week
我们几周前曾经讲过相关的内容 Whatever Christ is on the cross
而我在这里想要让大家注意 the old master always make sure
古代画作的几个特点 that there is blood
具体内容我们下周会讲 So here we have blood
但凡基督在十字架上 Here we have blood
古代艺术家都会确保 Here is blood, he's wounded on the side
画上有血 Which is in the Gospel of John, right
看 这里有血 that he appears by Roman centurion
这里有血 and blood and water come gushing forth
这里有血 他身体的一侧受伤了 in the Gospel of John
这是约翰福音的场景 He always has blood, here is blood
当耶稣出现在罗马百夫长面前时 The blood of course is dripping down
血水一齐涌向他们 where is towards the earth
这是约翰福音 And as often as not
他总是有血 这里就有 you have here, you see a skull
血当然是在滴下 because the crucifix were told
朝着地面的方向 he's crucified in a place called Golgotha
而一般来说 which means skull
这里大家都可以看到头盖骨 which means skull
因为按照文中的描述 But the point of the symbolic value is
耶稣被钉死的地方叫做骷髅山 Skull of course is skull of Adam
也就是骷髅的意思 Skull of humans, skull of death
骷髅的意思 And the blood of Christ, streaming down
但是这里的符号意义 will come to atone for the sin of Adam
头盖骨就是亚当的骷髅 to bring an end to death
是人类的骷髅 死亡的骷髅 But the key point here is you need blood
而基督的血流下 Right, that we'll discuss next week
将为亚当的罪孽救赎 In so far as Christ's atonement and sacrifice
将死亡带到尽头 Without blood, you have nothing
但是这里的重点是说 你需要血 So according to the gospels
这点我们下周会讨论 you have two thieves
基督的救赎和牺牲 all crucified on either side of him
如果没有血 就一无是处 One and two
根据福音书的记载 Here there's no blood at all
有两个贼 And here of course were a little blood
也随主钉在十字架上 He was wounded in the leg
一个 两个 If you look at it carefully
这里没有一点血迹 But anyway, it's Christ has blood
这里当然有一些血迹 Talk about crucifixion for a second
他的腿受伤了 How did he die as a result of crucifixion?
如果大家仔细看的话 Answer is slow asphyxiation
但是总而言之 基督是有血的 That's how you die, right
我们稍微讨论一下十字架钉死 Because with this body posture
他的最终死因是什么呢 your whole weight is being carried by
缓慢窒息而死 the diaphragm which ultimately
这就是死的方式 it just stays in the body
因为如果是这样的姿势 and also breath at the same time
你的整个体重都要承载在 So it's a long slow asphyxiation
隔膜上 最终 This form of death
隔膜承载很大的重量 Ah, the things you learned here, okay
还要负责呼吸的工作 Good, that's all I want you to know
这样经过很久的时间缓慢窒息 So INRI, kings, right
这是死亡的方式 So the idea that Jesus is king, will endure
好的 我们在这里学到了什么呢 in history of Christianity
我只需要大家知道 But, as we've already heard
INRI 国王 mentioned by David moments ago
知道耶稣是基督教历史上 You have a whole series of titles for Jesus
永恒的国王 He is priest, prophet
但是刚才我们也听到 god, son of god, the logos
David说过了 Right, you know, a whole series of titles
耶稣有很多头衔和名号的 The king is just one of the titles
他是一名祭司 先知 So king from the line of Judah
神 上帝之子 还是道 Son of David
他有很多的称谓 It's just one of the many titles
国王只不过是称谓之一 that Christ carries
来自犹大的国王 Okay, so remember we've discussed
大卫之子 Israelite kings on Monday
这只是耶稣拥有的 They do three main things
诸多称谓之一 They go to battle
好的 大家还记得我们讨论过 They are judges
周一讨论过以色列的国王 and they are in charge of the temple
他们有三种主要职分 So Christ is a Judean king, line of David
他们要征战 you expect him to do these things
要作大法官 And indeed, you'll find
还要管理神殿 Christian versions of these things
基督是犹大的国王 大卫的后裔 So Christ battle is not against human enemies
所以他也要做这些事情 Christ's battle is against sin and death
而实际上 大家也会找到 Christ resurrection represents
基督教版本的类似职分 triumph over death
基督的征战并非对抗敌人 So here we have Christ as a warrior
而是对抗罪孽和死亡 but Christ is a warrior against sin
耶稣的复活就代表着 against the devil, and against death
战胜死亡 So taking that idea, Christ the messianic warrior
因此在这里基督是一名战士 and transmuting it
他要对抗罪孽 Christ should also be a judge
对抗邪恶 对抗死亡 I'm not quite sure about the pursuitist matter
我们借鉴犹太教的职分 基督是弥赛亚的战士 I have to do research on this
把它应用在此 It's Christ seen as judge
基督也是一名法官 Certainly at the end of days
我这方面的内容不是太清楚 there's a great judgment scene in Christianity
还需要做一些功课 we've seen in the Book of Revelation
基督被视为法官 But does Christ actually serve as judge?
当然在末日 Can somebody help me here quickly?
在基督教中有一个末日审判 Is this typical or should be?
我们在启示录中可以读到 A great judgment scene
但是基督真的是要作大法官吗 That's for sure
有没有人在这里给我解释一下 And I'd like Christ to be the judge
应该如此还是有其他解释 but I confess I'm not sure about that
末日审判的场景 I still got to work on that
这是一定有的 But here comes to the next interesting point
我希望基督是大法官 The Jewish messiah, rabbinic messiah
但是我承认我对这方面内容不太熟悉 will after all, rebuilt Jerusalem
还需要做些功课 and rebuilt the temple
接下来我们再看一个有意思的观点 Right, that's what a king should do
犹太教的弥赛亚 拉比的弥赛亚 Well, Christ will do the same
将会重建耶路撒冷 according to some Christians
重建神殿 And here we have one of the most amazing
这是一名国王的职分 passages in Justin Martyr
基督也会如此 where Justin believes that the second coming
一些基督教徒如是说 Christ comes back in glory
而这里我们来看看最让人惊讶的 will be a general resurrection of the dead
殉道士游斯丁的文段 Fine, lots of Christians believe that too
游斯丁认为基督的第二次降临 followed by a thousand year of reign
基督会乘荣耀而来 in the restored city of Jerusalem
而这时死人会复生 So Christ is going to rebuild Jerusalem
这没什么 很多基督教徒都是这样认为的 and then have a kingdom there
而此后会在重建的耶路撒冷城中 for a thousand years
统治一千年 The adoption also known as millennialism
因此基督要重建耶路撒冷 From millennium, for a thousand years
并在此建立王国 Later Christians will be shocked by this idea
统治一千年 which they will say
这也被称作千禧年主义 That sounds like the Jews
从千禧年一词而来 一千年的意思 The idea that messiah will come
后来的基督教徒会感到震惊 and rebuild Jerusalem
他们会说 That's what the Jews think
这不就和犹太人一样了吗 We are Christians
弥赛亚会到来 We can't think that
重建耶路撒冷 So on the Christian side
这是犹太人的想法啊 this will become a
我们是基督教徒 ultimately a heretical belief
我们不可以这样想 Already, Jerome already in the 5th century
从基督教一面说来 will declare this as heretical
这最终就成了 But Justin thinks that Christ
异教的信仰 is going to preside over
杰罗姆在第五世纪的书中 and rebuild the city of Jerusalem
已经将此称为异教 in a thousand year kingdom
而游斯丁认为耶稣 Which I would say, is taking their prophecies
会统治 about all the gentiles streaming to Jerusalem
会重建耶路撒冷城 streaming to Zion
建造一个千年王国 Justin says it means Zion and Jerusalem
而我认为 这是借鉴了他们的预言 Okay, I think that's interesting
非犹太人来到耶路撒冷 You don't, okay
来到锡安 Next, two big points
游斯丁认为这意味着锡安 耶路撒冷 Suffering and dying and resurrecting messiah
好的 我觉得这非常有意思 For this, no scholar has yet found
你们不这么想 好吧 any good parallel anywhere in ancient Judaism
下面两个重点 There are all kinds of tantalizing clues
弥赛亚受难 死亡和复生 here and there
关于这一点 至今还没有学者 But on one has actually found it
从古代的犹太教中找到好的平行文本 This seems to be a uniquely Christian spin
有很多似是而非的线索 on the idea of messianic redeemer
出现在各处 son of David and the rest
但是还真的没有证据 This is a uniquely Christian set of ideas
这似乎是一个独特的基督教 Justin attaches these ideas
对于弥赛亚救赎者的难题 the dying, resurrecting, suffering
大卫之子 等等 dying resurrecting messiah
这是非常独特的基督教的观点 He attaches that to
游斯丁将这些观点 two main Biblical passages
也就是弥赛亚的死亡 复生 Isaiah 53
受难 复生等等 which we'll be talking about next week
他将此和两段 and Psalm 22
圣经文段联系起来 which many of you worked on for your papers
以赛亚书53 These two passages for him
我们下周会讨论 prove from the Scriptures
还有诗篇22 that this is true
很多同学都用来当作论文题目 Okay, Jews were not convinced by this
游斯丁认为这两段文字 But for Justin at least
从圣经中证明 These two passages prove that
他是正确的 this is Christian truth
犹太教徒没有被说服 And out of these two passages
但是至少对游斯丁来说 Isaiah 53 in particular will go on
这两段话证明了 to have an enormously influential
基督教的真理 career in Christianity
而在这两段话中 which we'll talk about next week
以赛亚书53又会 Second coming bullet point
在将来的基督教中 I've already explained
有着非常深远的影响 Last bullet point
这一点我们下周会讲到 Christians are waiting
第二次降临这一点 This is the most interesting point of all, I think
我已经解释过了 Structurally, Christians and Jews
最后一点 with the belief in the messiah
基督教徒在等待 wind up in the same place
我认为这是最有趣的一点 The place that they wind up in is
结构上说来 基督教徒和犹太人 there are unfulfilled Biblical prophecies
在信仰弥赛亚这一点上 The Biblical prophecies have to be fulfilled
殊途同归 They cannot not be fulfilled
他们相同的归途就是 If they have not been fulfilled yet
没有得到兑现的圣经预言 it surely is because they will yet be fulfilled
圣经预言必须要得到应验 The major difference is that Christians argue
他们不能不得到应验 that some of the prophecies
如果现在还没有应验 have already been fulfilled
那只能说明将来会得到应验 Christians like Justin will argue
基督教和犹太教主要的区别就是基督教徒认为 that a number of Biblical passages
一些预言 can be understood to refer to
已经得到兑现 Jesus as being fulfilled
游斯丁这样的基督教徒认为 in the life, death, career of Jesus
许多圣经的文段 So those passages for Christians
都可以被理解为 are taken off the table
已经得以应验 What's left on the table
体现在耶稣的生死之上 are the unfulfilled ones
所以对基督教徒来说 这些段落 Christ coming in glory
就可以抛开不谈了 Those have yet to be fulfilled
而仍然需要我们讨论的 On the Jewish side, the Jews will say
是那些还没有得到兑现的 in response to those Christians
比如基督乘荣耀而归 Many of those passages
这些还没有应验 Christ have been fulfilled
而犹太教徒看来 犹太人 has nothing to do with messiah anyway
针对这些基督教徒会说 Like Isaiah 7
其中的许多段落 Behold the virgin shall conceive, right
也就是基督已经兑现的预言 You are confusing categories
和弥赛亚没有丝毫关系 has nothing to do with it anyway
就好比以赛亚书7 And, those passages that are left
必有童女受孕生子 They would say, they belong not to
你这是搞错了 the fulfilled category pile
这与弥赛亚没什么关系 They belong in the unfulfilled pile
而对于剩下的还没有兑现的预言 So at the end of the day
他们会说 这些不属于 you have Jews and Christians alike
已经应验的这一类 left with passages
属于还没有应验的那一类 that have not yet been fulfilled
因此归根结底 Jews are waiting for their fulfillment
犹太人和基督教徒 And Christians are waiting for their fulfillment
都有一些预言 And if you want to know
尚未得以兑现 Well, who's right?
犹太教徒在等待应验 I attempted to say
基督教徒同样也在等待应验 You have to wait to find out
如果你想知道 Then we'll know
这其中谁对谁错 Okay, I got one minute left
那我只好说 Anybody have quick questions
大家等着瞧吧 to fill up the last minute?
会知道的 I'm happy to take any
好了 还剩一分钟 questions and observations
有人问个简单点的问题吗 Yes
填充一下最后的时间 The way I'm explaining it is
我很乐意为大家解答 If you are a traditional Jew
任何问题和看法 and if you are a traditional Christian
好的 You are, each of you is waiting
我给大家的解释是这样的 for the messianic redeemer
如果大家是传统意义上的犹太人 Cos each of you is convinced that
或者传统意义上的基督教徒 the messianic redeemer will yet come some day
那你们就都在等待 and fulfill the Biblical prophecies
弥赛亚的救赎者 Yes
因为你们都坚信 Okay everyone
弥赛亚的救赎者有一天会到来 Look forward to see you on Monday [Rhine & trismile Production]
实现基督教的预言
好的
同学们
我们周一再见