今天我们讲解 Today we are talking about
基督教的观点 the Christian side of things
我们周一讲过了希伯来圣经 We've spoken about the Hebrew Bible
关于割礼的主要章节 main text of circumcision on Monday
我们讲了一些 We've spoken a little bit about
犹太人对此的反应 Jewish reflections on that
通过晚期的拉比 through how the latter Rabbis
放大了割礼的重要性 are magnifying the importance of circumcision
我们读了主要的一段文本 And we looked one of the key text
如果你上节课没听到 In case you missed the lecture
这些内容在阅读材料上也有 some of that was also in the reading
好了 今天我们讲基督教方面的观点 Okay, now, today the Christian side of things
首先要简单说下的人物是保罗 The first figure to talk about briefly is Paul
说起来保罗和割礼有数不尽的话题 We can talk endlessly about Paul and circumcision
我不打算讲得太多因为 I don't wannna do that because
咱们的课不是关于新约的 this course is not about the New Testament
而且你读过并讨论了 also your reading discusses
其中一些重要的章节 some of these key passages
我想先停一下 I just wanna step back a second
先确保大家知道 Just make sure we all understand
我们讲的人是谁 whom we are talking about
这个人是谁 Who is this guy?
谁是保罗 Who is Paul?
关于这一点 我们要 So just for that, make sure we fill in
简单地介绍下 a little bit of information
我们已经讲过耶稣了 So Jesus we've spoke about already
耶稣是基督教的创始人 Jesus is the founding figure of Christianity
耶稣是四部福音书的主题 Jesus is the subject of four Gospels
马太 马可 路加和约翰 Matthew, Mark, Luke and John
给了我们类似 Which gave us something
耶稣生平的东西 like a biography of Jesus, okay
早期基督教下一个重要人物是保罗 The next major figure of early Christianity is Paul
保罗是一系列信件的作者 Paul is the author of a series of letters
或者用个华丽的词说是使徒书 or epistles, use the fancy word
在新约中的使徒书 Letters are found in the New Testament
有13封归在保罗头上 there are 13 letters attributed to Paul
其中7封我们认为 of which 7 we are convinced
确实是保罗写的 are actually written by Paul
其他6封还有争论 and other 6 we can argue about
到底是不是保罗写的 whether were written by Paul or not
这些都是我们之后所说的基督教 These are the key formative documents
形成过程中 to the emergence of
一些非常重要的文档 what will come to be called Christianity
不是耶稣 是保罗 Not Jesus, it's Paul, right
保罗创造了什么才是 Paul is the one who lays out the theoretical basis
基督教的理论基础 for what will become Christianity
保罗建立了什么才是 Paul establishes the major themes
基督教的主要主题 of what will become Christianity
保罗生为犹太人 和耶稣一样 Paul himself is a born Jew, like Jesus
保罗至死仍是犹太人 And Paul himself remains a Jew
这一点贯穿其一生 和耶稣一样 It's about his entire life, like Jesus
而保罗不同的一点是 That Paul, the difference is that Paul
在他身上可以 is already reflecting
看到一些新的东西出现 on the emergence of something new
保罗的观点认为 From Paul's perspective
犹太教本身已经改变了 Judaism itself has changed
上帝和这个世界的关系改变了 God's relationship with the world has changed
我喜欢另一种说法 Another way I'd like to put it, right
保罗认为世界图景已经改变了 Paul thinks the map of the world has changed
在曾经的图景上 有犹太人和非犹太人 In the old map, you have Jews and non-Jews
犹太人和非犹太异教徒 Jews and gentiles
这种二元论的世界观 That dualistic fabricated view of the universe
是典型的基督教观点 which is characteristic in Judaism
这是旧的图景 That's the old map
在新的图景中 并没有 In the new map, you don't have
犹太人和非犹太异教徒 Jews and gentiles
而是 什么 You have, what?
而是 好吧 这里如果完全援引 You have, well, there we have something to argue
保罗的观点的话会有些争论 exactly what we do have according to Paul
按照保罗的观点 关键是 But according to Paul, the key thing is
再也不是犹太人和非犹太异教徒了 It's not Jews in gentiles any longer
而是上帝的子民 It is God's people
和那些还没成为上帝子民的人 and those who are not yet God's people
那些不是 或者说还不是上帝子民的人 Those who are not, or not yet God's people
而犹太人方面呢 Right? And the Jews somehow, we get
如何看待旧图景 犹太-非犹太异教徒 How do you take the old map, Jew-Gentile
和新的图景 上帝的子民 in this new map of God's people
或者上帝的选民 or the chosen people of God?
或者有个说法是他孕育的子民 Use the phrase he has inoculations, right
相对其他人 verses everybody else
现在世界的图景变得复杂了 That's where the map gets complicated
我们会在最后一节讲到这些 We'll talk about that in our very last session
我们会讲到基督徒 We'll talk about the Christian idea
对上帝选民的看法 of the chosen people
和犹太人对于 Which is derived from
上帝选民的看法是不同的 the Jewish idea of chosen people
而这一点来自圣经 which comes out of the Scripture
假设也存在上帝的选民这一概念 Right, suppose he'll have this idea of chosen people
但是这些选民到了现在已经 But that chosen people is no longer the ethnic Israel
不再是以色列民族 as it had been until now
而是那些 Rather, it is all those
选择相信基督的人 who come to believe in Christ
或者通过基督相信上帝的人 or to believe in God through Christ
或者也可以 or again, you can argue exactly
用保罗用的那些词语 how to phrase that according to Paul
所以保罗是一个主要的思想家 So Paul that is a major thinker, right?
提出了新的看法 who gives the world the idea
曾经的以色列 以色列的血肉 that the old Israel, Israel in the flesh
他是这样说的 或者以色列族群 as he calls it, or ethnic Israel
现在被取代了 has now been replaced
被扩展了 has now been blown open
突然一刹间 burst to thunder
对所有人敞开了怀抱 opened up to embrace everyone
不管是什么种族 of whatever ethnic distraction
不管是什么教徒 of whatever dissent
只要他们相信基督 as long as they are part of God's people
听从基督的教诲 by believing in Christ
就可以成为上帝的选民 by accepting the message of Christ
这就是保罗干的事情 That's what Paul is up to
还有很多其他事情 不过保罗主要干这个 Among many other things that's what Paul is up to
而这其中最重要的部分 And part and part so of that
就是有着持续影响的 保罗口中的律法 are sustained reflections by Paul about THE LAW
律法 The Law, right?
当然也是旧图景的一部分 which is part, of course, the old map
那就是犹太人和非犹太异教徒 in which we have Jews and gentiles
犹太人有律法 异教徒没有 Jews have the Law, gentiles don't
犹太人遵循律法 异教徒没有 Jews observe the Law, gentiles don't
但是在新图景中 But in this new map
我们要怎么样看待律法呢 What are we going to do with the Law?
就像以前的以色列族群被取代了 Just as old ethnic Israel has been replaced
或者说被一些新东西废弃了 or has been superseded by something new
类似地 旧的律法 Similarly, the old Law has
也被取代了 被废弃了 been replaced or superseded
最终基督教会获得 Ultimately Christians will get the language of
新约 新的约 New Testament, New Covenant
保罗现在还没有这些新的章节 Paul doesn't quite have that language yet
现在还只是个开始 Right? We are still at the very beginning
还只是在公元 We are still in the middle of
1世纪的中叶 the first century of our era
但是保罗已经开始思考 But Paul is already thinking about
关于律法的问题了 this question of the Law
保罗从那天开始 就把律法放到了 And Paul puts the Law on the Christian agenda
基督教的议程上 from that day to this
基督徒是如何应对律法的 Right? What do Christians do with the Law?
一部分是希伯来圣经 It's part of the Hebrew Bible
一部分是神学启示 It's part of divine revelation
但是我们明白这些突然出现了 But we understand since were burst in open
类似地以色列人也同样突然对 Ethnic Israel were similarly burst in open
旧律法的仪式需求敞开了怀抱 the ritual requirements of the old Law
基督教徒不再被 Right, we Christians are no longer
那些仪式限制 bound by those rituals
那些奇怪的方法和规则 by those distinctive ways and manners
那些带有明显的以色列印记 which serve to keep ethnic Israel distinct
将其与世界其他部分区分开 and separate from the rest of the world
已经不存在了 It's no longer true
我们不想要以色列人自成一派 We don't want ethnic Israel be separate, distinct
我想要上帝的子民 所有人都可以参与进来 We want people of God, and it could be everybody
所以古老的律法将会被 So the old rituals are going to be
重铸 重新构想 取代 recast, reconceived, replaced
重新改造 重新配置 等等 reinvented, reconfigured, etc.
而所有这些对于保罗来说最重要的 And first and foremost among these for Paul
就是割礼 is circumcision
因为对保罗来说 割礼多多少少 Cos for Paul, circumcision more or less
等于律法 equals the Law
为什么他认为割礼 And why does he think of circumcision
等同于律法呢 as equal link to the Law?
因为保罗认为 Because Paul senses
我们周一讲过的 as we've discussed on Monday
割礼有些独特的东西 There's something unique about circumcision
并不简单是另一个戒律 It's not just another commandment
而是有一些本质上的不同 There's something qualitatively different about it
我们周一讲过了 We've discussed this on Monday
保罗肯定是偷听了我周一的课了 Paul no doubt heard my lecture from Monday
保罗完全明白了 Right, Paul understands as
我才华横溢的讲解 I so brilliantly expatiated, right?
也就是说割礼有些不同的地方 That there's something different about circumcision
并不简单只是一条戒律 It's not just another commandment
而且事实上 是整件事情的关键 And in fact, it is the key to the whole thing
这就是保罗所理解的 This is the way Paul understands it
因此 如果能够废除割礼 Consequently, if you take down circumcision
就可以废除整个系统 You've taken down the whole
废除旧律法的合法性和仪式性 legal, ritual artifice of the old Law
这就是保罗 That's Paul
基督徒从发现这一点的那天开始 And that endures in Christian thinking, right
就一直在思考这个问题 from that day to this in the sense that
基督徒一直在挣扎 Christians have always been struggling with
我们基督徒非常喜欢 We've liked the prophetic books
希伯来圣经里面的预言书 in the Hebrew Bible a lot, we Christians
我们基督徒也非常喜欢Torah We like the stories of the Torah a lot
里面的故事 We Christians
但是我们基督徒不太确定 But we are not quite sure
怎么样处理关于 what to do with the laws, of the Law
律法的事情 We Christians
因为其实 Cos it's whatever
我们卡在这里了 We've kind of stuck with it
回到保罗身上 That goes back to Paul
与此同时 犹太法师们 Equal time, rabbinic Jews
对于律法非常满意 were very happy with the Law
非常喜欢律法的描述 very comfortable with the law stuff
而一些预言的段落 Some of the prophetic passages
才是困惑他们的地方 they find it very disturbing
只是想两方面都说下 Alright, just be equal time, right
我们后面会讲到 We'll look at ahead there, okay
这些就是保罗的背景 So much of background on Paul
希望这些背景能有帮助 Just hope this is helpful background too
关于保罗的年代 So again, that dates to Paul
耶稣是在30世纪 So Jesus is in the 30s
保罗还活着 在写作 Paul is living, writing
而在公元50世纪活动频繁 and busy active in the 50s CE
保罗没有见过耶稣 Paul never met Jesus
重复下 保罗从来没见过耶稣 Repeat, Paul never met Jesus
收回那句话 保罗没有见过活着的耶稣 Take back, Paul never met the living Jesus
他在想象中见过耶稣 He met Jesus in the vision
但是这不是一回事儿 But that's not quite the same thing
好了 有问题吗 Okay, you have questions
关于这些有用的背景知识 with the helpful background info
大家有问题吗 and you have questions on this
评论 Observations?
我希望我讲的和 I hope what I said agrees with
你在主日学校学到的是一致的 what they taught you in Sunday schools
我不认为我讲了什么 I don't think I said anything there
和主日学校相斥的东西 that would disagree with Sunday school
你有问题吗 There do you have a?
我只是在想 I was just wondering
关于保罗的教育背景 What is it about Paul's education
是在犹太教之内还是之外 in Judaism or outside of Judaism
或者他在犹太教内 or his lack of education
犹太教外都没受过什么教育 in Judaism or outside of Judaism
这一点有助于把他和犹太教区分开 that helps separate him from Judaism
首先 Well, first of all
保罗会为自己辩解说他没有和犹太教分离 Paul would argue he's not separate from Judaism
他会争论说自己也是犹太人 Paul would argue, I am a good Jew
他在自传里面写到 I was born a good Jew
自己生来就是个犹太人 in the famous autobiographical
腓立比书第3章 passage in Philippians:3
讲到了自己的资质 where tells you about his credentials
腓立比书第3章 Philippians:3
所以他会坚持说自己就是个犹太人 So he will insist he has always been a good Jew
是犹太教改变了 It's Judaism that's changed
他自己没有改变 是犹太教改变了 I haven't changed, Judaism has changed
我不同意 Right? And I disagree with
关于新图景的说法 the messenger of the new map
上帝告诉我们说 that God has given us
现在人类的图景已经 by which humanity is now mapped out
变得不同了 differently from before
你问到的是一个重要的问题 Then you ask the big questions, which is
保罗从哪里来的 Where does Paul come from?
答案是我也不知道 Okay, answer I don't know
有数不清的书 There's millions of books out there
都在试图解决这个问题 each of whom try to explain this
如果你相信保罗说的 Okay, if you take Paul at his word
他有自己的愿景 He had a vision
我选择相信他说的 I might take it at his word
他信仰崇高 He believes in elevation?
当他这样说的时候 I'm sure he's absolutely right
我肯定他说得没错 when he says he believes in elevation
一下子一切对他来说都是确定无疑的了 Right, all of a sudden, things became certain to him
你没法争论这一点 You can't argue with that
我可以介绍一门 Okay, may I introduce a course
关于新约的课程吗 on New Testament around here
应该是Stan和Migrasson的课 I don't know, Stan and Migrasson do it
也许快开始了 Maybe the time has come
但是不是今天 Okay, but not today
还有其他问题 评论吗 Okay, other questions, observations?
这些关于保罗的段落在你们的 So these Pauline passages are marked
阅读材料里面都标记出来了 and rendered in your reading
我把关键点都标出来了 I tried to highlight the key points
现在对于基督徒来说 Right? That will endure now
基本的律法特别是关于割礼 in Christian thinking about the law in general
就会一直是这个样子了 and about circumcision in particular
第一段是罗马书第4章 非常有名的段落 First passage is in Romans:4, the famous passage
割礼是一个记号 记号 Circumcision is a sign, the sign
约的记号 The sign of the Covenant, right?
这会反映出所有基督徒 This will bid all later Christian reflection
如何面对割礼 about circumcision
我们后面会讲到 We'll come back to this
创世纪第17章和罗马书的段落 This passage of Genesis:17 via Romans
割礼是信仰的记号 Circumcision is a sign of faith
就是这一段 Again, here is that passage
我在周一引用过 I refer to on Monday
创世纪第15章 according from Genesis:15
亚伯拉罕信耶和华 耶和华就以此为他的义 Faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness
创世纪第15章第6节 Genesis 15:6
亚伯拉罕当然是 So Abraham, of course is the recipient
割礼这一戒律的受施者 of the commandment of circumcision
是希伯来圣经人物的例证 Who is the paradigmatic Hebrew Bible figure
被和割礼联系起来 创世纪第17章 whom you associate with circumcision, Genesis:17
保罗却很狡猾 Paul is a fast one here
提出了绝对是天才的论证 absolutely brilliant and genius argument
他说 亚伯拉罕是 He says, no, Abraham is the symbol
不需要割礼也能成为义人的象征 of somebody who's righteous without circumcision
因为割礼只是个记号 Because circumcision is only a sign
如果你们上过符号学的课 Now if you take Semiotics 101
就会明白记号是什么意思 You understand what does a sign mean
不是特别直白 对吧 It's not so obvious, right
你要怎么样理解呢 How you understand what this means
这是约的记号 It's a sign of the Covenant
说实话我不太确定 Frankly I'm not sure
在创世纪第17章是什么意思 what does it mean in Genesis:17
我也不太确定保罗认为这是什么意思 I'm also not sure what Paul thinks it means
我们可以没完没了地讨论 Well, we can argue about this endlessly
但是不要这样 But we won't
对于基督教来说重点是 But the point of Christians reflection is
这只是什么的记号 It's only a sign of something
这只是象征着什么 It's signifying something else
对割礼而言 Circumcision is
但是割礼本身 很明显什么都不是 But in itself, apparently, it's nothing
或者说不是那么重要 or at least no big deal
这是基督徒对待 That's one way Christians will
记号的一种想法 spin the notion of signs
这是信念的记号 So it's a sign of faith
好了 这是第一个问题 Okay, first thing
第二个问题 对心灵的割礼 Second thing, circumcision of the heart
下一个重点 Next bullet point
对心灵的割礼 The circumcision of the heart
这会成为基督徒标准的说辞 This will become again standard Christian trope
上帝真正想要的 That what God really wants
不是对肉体的割礼 is not circumcision of the flesh
拿起一把刀割掉一块皮肤 We take a knife and cut off a piece of skin
上帝真正想要的是对心灵的割礼 What God really wants is the circumcision of the heart
也就是我们清除自身的隔阂 Wherein we remove barriers within ourselves
以接受神圣的信息 to receive the divine message
我们移除那些粘稠的 那些溺爱的 We remove any thickening, any cosseting
那些接受神圣信息的障碍 any obstacle to receive the divine message
以便于拉近与上帝的距离 so as to bring God into ourselves
这才是上帝想让我们做的 That's what God wants us to do
对心灵的割礼 To circumcise our heart
当然这不涉及到用刀 And of course that does not involve a knife
也不涉及到流血 That does not involve any blood
也不涉及到外科手术程序 That does not involve a surgical procedure
是一种精神上的程序 It's a spiritual procedure
让我们准备好去 Right, as we make ourselves ready
接受神圣的 to accept the divine
接受神圣的信息 to accept the divine message
这才是上帝真正想要的割礼 That's the circumcision that God really wants
这种想法从何而来呢 Now where does this come from?
这种对心灵割礼的说法 The language of the circumcision of the heart?
不过当然 Which means of course
也有要心灵的包皮 You have a foreskin of the heart
然后才是心灵的割礼 And then the circumcision of the heart
这些东西都是从哪里来的呢 同学们 Where does that language come from, class?
当然是在希伯来圣经里面 Right in the Hebrew Bible
从这里拿一段 Where he's taking passage over here
然后放到另外一个地方去 and then you'll remove it over there, right
在申命记和耶利米书里面 So we have it in Deuteronomy and in Jeremiah
都有相关的描述 We have this language of
心灵的包皮 对心灵的割礼 foreskin of the heart, circumcision of the heart
嘴唇的包皮 对嘴唇的割礼 foreskin of the lips, circumcision of the lips
我们有这些比喻性的语言 Right, we have this metaphorical language
所以基督徒的论点是 So the Christian argument would be
这才是上帝想要的割礼 That's the circumcision that God really wants
是个比喻的说法 It's been a metaphorical one
下一个重点 Next bullet point
我们是真正的割礼 We are the true circumcision
而不是依赖于肉体 not relying on the flesh
这一段也是罗马书的段落 This goes back to the passage in Romans too
值得花点时间读一读 This is worth reading for a second
对于不是真正的犹太人来说 For a person who is not a Jew
是行于表面的 who is one outwardly
不是真正的割礼 nor is true circumcision
表面和身体上的 something external and physical
不是内心的 真的犹太人 Rather, a Jews is one inwardly
真正的割礼是关乎于心 A real circumcision is a matter of the heart
我们已经看到了这些对比 Right? We've already seen this contrast
内部的 外部的 between external, internal
真正的 虚假的 灵魂的 表面的 real, not real, spirit, letter
保罗将这些玩弄鼓掌之间 Paul is playing with that
他认为对于圣经文本的解读 He is thinking that reading exegesis of Scripture
还记得寓言式解读吗 Remember allegory?
我们讲过寓言式解读的例子 We've spoken about that case in allegory
可以有 抱歉 不讲这个了 You have, sorry don't talk about it
这太复杂了 It's too complicated
但是这是同一类的争论 Okay, but it's the same kind of argument
有外部的 肉体的 表面的 There's an external, the physical, the literal
然后有内部的 灵魂的 Then you have the internal, the spiritual
这些都是圣经文本 That's true in Scripture
圣经文本有直白和表面的含义 Scripture has a plain and external meaning
但是寓言解读者知道 But the allegorists know that
真正的含义不是表面的含义 the real meaning is not the external meaning
类似地保罗说 Similarly Paul says
割礼的真正含义 the real meaning of the circumcision
不是表面的含义 not the external one
涉及到皮肤和流血的那种 involving a piece of skin and blood
而是内在的含义 It's the internal one
不是对身体 而且在身体里面 It's not on the body, it's in the body
是对灵魂而言 It's in the spirit
这种割礼才是真的割礼 That's circumcision that is the real circumcision
上帝想要的割礼 The circumcision that God really wants
在第3章还有一段 And there is still a passage in Chapter 3
再也不是犹太人和希腊人 There is no longer Jew nor Greek
为奴的或自主的 男的或者女的 slave or free, male or female
因为在基督耶稣里面都已成为一 for you are all one in Christ Jesus
耶稣实际上重新回到了图景当中 Jesus is de facto rejoin the map
旧图景是犹太人和希腊人 The old map between Jew and Greek
或者换种说法犹太人和非犹太异教徒 which is another way of saying Jew and gentile
已经被新的图景取代了 That's been replaced by a new map
另外保罗在这段里面是什么意思 Otherwise, what does Paul mean in that passage?
我们先不讨论 We won't discuss it right now
特别是他说的男人或者女人是什么意思 Especially what does it mean, the male or female?
好了 去看我的书 Okay, read my book
下一段 So, next passage
在这里引用一段歌罗西书 Here, brief reference to Colossians
那些保罗的追随者 The follower of Paul
基督徒通过基督的割礼 Christians are circumcised
而受了割礼 through circumcision of the Christ
四个福音书中只有路加福音 Only in the four Gospels is the Gospel Luke
在第2章 in Chapter 2
描写了一段婴儿时期的段落 who has a description in the infancy section
婴儿时期的福音书段落 infancy Gospel section
有一个故事讲到玛利亚来到圣殿 has a story of Mary coming to the temple
来净化刚刚出生的婴儿 to be purified after child birth
遵循利未记第12章的律法 following laws of Leviticus:12
而这一部分讲的是 And that's part and part so of
婴儿耶稣受割礼 having the infant Jesus circumcised
只有在路加福音第2章才有 This is only found in Luke:2
其他三部福音书里面都没有 None of the other three Gospels have it
但是从路加福音的这一段 But from this passage in Luke
每一个基督徒都知道耶稣基督 Every Christian knows that Jesus Christ
他自己也受过割礼 himself was circumcised
这会成为之后 This will become a subject of
中世纪时期基督教反复思量的 enormous Christian reflection later on
一个重要主题 in the middle ages
基督徒们想的是 which Christians reflect
婴儿基督受过割礼 what does this mean that
这到底是什么意思呢 the infant Jesus is circumcised
这会引出什么结论 What does that protend
事实上底线当然是 Well, in fact the bottom line of course is
耶稣受过了割礼 that Jesus is circumcised
所以我就不用了 so that I don't have to be
耶稣的割礼意味着 Right, Jesus' circumcision means
割礼的结束 the end of circumcision
通过耶稣的割礼 Through Jesus' circumcision
我们都受过割礼了 we are circumcised
我们通过基督教 Right? We, through Christianity
成为一名基督徒 become one with Christ
我们通过接受洗礼成为 We've become one with Christ's bodies
基督的一部分 through Baptism, etc.
我们与基督同死 同复活 We die with Christ, we resurrect with Christ
同样地 我们和基督一起受了割礼 Similarly, we are now circumcised with Christ
这会成为基督徒对割礼的 This will be the standard Christian way
标准解释方法 of reflecting on circumcision
从歌罗西书第2章的段落看到 And you have this passage from Colossians:2
我们通过基督的割礼 We are circumcised through
而受了割礼 the circumcision of the Christ
如果你去博物馆 If you go to any museum
去看早期绘画大师的作品 or collections of old masters
可以看到关于基督受割礼的 You will see paintings and sculptures
画作和雕塑 of the circumcision of Christ
比如这幅 So here is one
作者是Andrea Montegna This is by Andrea Montegna
对于他我基本上完全没了解 about whom I know perhaps nothing
但是他是十五世纪晚期的 But he's an old master, you see
一位绘画大师 from the late 15th century
不同于我周一给大家看的那些 So unlike the other scenes I showed you on Monday
比如1722年的Bernard Picart By Bernard Picart from 1722
是写实主义的 which has all the air of realism about it
看起来像是描述犹太割礼的 It looks like it was a real scene
真正的场景 describing a Jewish circumcision
这很明显是神学上的抽象 对吧 Here is clearly theological abstraction, right?
画家自己从来没有看过 Painted by a man who never ever saw
真正的割礼 a real circumcision, right
这是他想象中的婴儿耶稣 This is how he's imagining the infant Jesus
由他的母亲玛利亚抱着 being held by his mother Mary
另外一个当然是约瑟 他的父亲 And here of course is Joseph, the father
中间这个大概是大祭司 Right? And here is the high priest, presumably
光头的这个 Again, bare-headed
手里面拿着一把刀 Holding a knife in his hand
我放大给大家看一下 You can, I'll zoom in so you can see it
这里 There
他拿着一把刀 一把滚热的刀 So he's holding a knife, hot knife in his hand
但是我不确定是不是割礼应该使用的刀 And I'm not sure that's a valid circumcision knife
犹太律法中规定的那种 from the point of view of Jewish law
但这不是重点 But that's not the point
所以这张画上主要讲的是什么呢 Okay, so what's going on in this painting briefly?
这是众多文学描述中的一个 It's one of the literary dozens
我记得我去克吕尼博物馆 I remember when I went to museum of Cluny
在巴黎 有很多中世纪艺术品 in Paris, which is of medieval Christian art
有大量的雕像 There are statues galore
关于基督的割礼 of the scene of the circumcision of Christ
这里有个小篮子 So here we have this little basket
看到小篮子里面是什么了吗 You see what's in the basket?
两只小鸟 Two little birds
这是净化仪式的一部分 That's part of the purification ceremony
利未记第12章 of Leviticus:12
所以艺术家 So this artists, you know
还是做过相关的研究的 has done his homework there
这是什么情节 What scene is this?
亚伯拉罕差一点牺牲了以撒 创世纪第22章 Abraham almost sacrificing Isaac in Genesis:22, right?
这是基督徒的理解 这一段 This is understood by Christians, this passage
如果我还能多讲一节 And if I have one extra session
我会讲一下创世纪第22章 I would talk about this one in Genesis:22
亚伯拉罕差一点牺牲了他的儿子以撒 The Abraham nearly sacrificing a son Isaac
创世纪第22章 Genesis:22
如果你对这个故事不熟 If you are not familiar with the story
回家读一读 go home and read it
这被认为是一个类型 类型学 This is understood to be a type, typology
关于苦难的类型 for the crucifixion
以撒的差点死去象征着 The near death of Isaac mirrors
基督差点死去 The near death of Christ
但是知道吗 But you know what?
耶稣的割礼同样也是个类型 Circumcision of Jesus also is a type
因为这是第一次 Cos this is the first time
犹太人攻击了基督的身体 that Jews are attacking the body of the Christ
下一次这样做 The next time they are
对于基督身体的攻击 attacking the boy of the Christ
当然是在十字架上 of course was on the cross
所以耶稣的割礼常常 So circumcision of Jesus will often
被基督徒认为是 understood by Christians as
期待苦难 anticipating the crucifixion
如果你想要确切知道 And just in case you want to ensure
这张画这个场景里面说的是什么 what's going on in this picture, the scene
好了 Here we go
错了 后退 Oops, back up
这是什么 What is this?
这是谁 Who is this?
摩西 Moses?
摩西 Moses
他长了什么 What does he have?
角 Horns
角 这是米开朗基罗著名的摩西雕像 Horns, like the famous Moses of Michelangelo, right?
长了角的形象 This is the horned figure
是基于对出埃及记一节 Which is based on a misunderstanding
翻译的一个误解 of a verse in Exodus
多少来着 第21还是22章 What is it? 21 or 22
我不记得具体哪章了 I forget the correct reference
[希伯来语] Moses has horns
摩西长角了 This is Moses teaching Israelites
这是摩西在训诫以色列人 In other words, circumcision is the Law
也就是说 割礼是律法 So we have on the two lunettes
这幅画的场景中 in this particular scene
有两个弦月窗 Clearly, this painter, is clearly theologian
很明显有人指示过 has long been instructed, right?
这个神学的画家 is representing somehow
画作代表了 on the one hand
一方面 the circumcision anticipates the crucifixion
割礼期待着苦难 which, in turn, is typologically understood to be
接下里 象征的意义是 Abraham sacrificing Isaac
亚伯拉罕牺牲以撒 On the other hand, represents the end of the Law
一方面代表律法的终结 On that sort of thing
或者类似的东西 I'm not sure what is going on over here
我不太确定到底发生了什么 Also that sort of thing
这一类的事情 let me zoom to see what's happened
咱们放大看看发生了什么 Here we go
好了 Here, he's a little boy
这里 有一个小男孩 What's he holding in his hand?
他的手里面拿着什么 I thought it was a pencil
我本来以为是一支铅笔 But looks like could be like a broken ring
但是看上去像是个坏掉的环 which must represent something
肯定代表着什么 Whether it's a bright idea, I don't know
也许是一个好点子 我不知道 But surely represents
但是肯定代表着 the Old Covenant being broken
旧的约被打破了 I think
我认为 But anyway, we just see, these paintings are
但是不管怎么说 我们可以看到这些画作 whatever artistic merit they may have
不管艺术价值如何 They are part and part so of
它们都是基督徒 Christian reflection on the theme
对于这个场景的反应 Christians thought the circumcision of Christ
基督徒认为基督的割礼 as a particularly resonant theme
是一个特别宏大的场景 A theme which says a lot to them about
这个场景传递了很多信息 Christianity and the Christian message
基督教的和基督徒的信息 Is there any art historian in here
有美术史学家吗 who can help me out with this painting?
可以帮我讲讲这幅画吗 This is part of a triptych
这是三幅一联中的一幅 Reason, it's in such odd shape
之所以形状很特别 Cos it's built from a panel behind the altar
因为这是在圣坛后面立着的 With one piece on the side
这边有一幅 One piece on the side, one piece in the middle
这边有一幅 中间有一幅 This is on one, the signed pieces
这副是有符号的一幅 Okay, yeah, Johnny?
好了 Johnny有问题吗 Has Paul mentioned circumcision of Jesus?
保罗提到过耶稣的割礼吗 No
没有 Paul is not interested in the biography of Jesus
保罗对耶稣的生平不感兴趣 That's one of the major differences between
这是四部福音书和 the four Gospels and the writings of Paul
他的作者保罗之间最重要的一点不同 The four Gospels are
四部福音书 interested in the biography of Jesus
主要专注于耶稣的生平 Interested in what he did, what he said
他做了什么 说了什么 what was done to him, right?
在他身上发生了什么事情 His life in times
他的一生 That's what the four gospels are about
这就是四部福音书的内容 Paul is not the least bit interested in any of them
但是保罗对这些没有一丝兴趣 Paul is only interested in one thing
保罗只对一件事感兴趣 Or two things
或者两件事 He was crucified, he was resurrected
耶稣被钉上十字架 耶稣复活 Justin is actually a very difficult guy to read
犹斯丁是一个很难读懂的人物 He's running this kind of dents
他的作品令人印象深刻 He has an unfortunate habit of
非常不幸他习惯跑题 having troubles sticking to a topic
没法一直讨论一个主题 So he tells a little bit over here
所以说一会儿这个 And then he's on something else
然后就说别的东西去了 And he goes back to where he was before
然后再跑回来说前面的话题 So with all this that you've seen in the syllabus
所以在教学大纲里面大家看到的 He has scattered references
殉道士犹斯丁对于同一主题 to the same topic in Justin Martyr
的参考文献都很分散 Wherein I think an editor
我想如果能有个编辑 would have been very helpful
应该会很有帮助 So he is an important thinker
他是基督教思想形成的 an important witness
重要思想家 to the emergence of Christian thought
重要的证人 Christian thinking about the Bible
基督徒对于圣经的解读 The Hebrew Bible in particular
特别是希伯来圣经 where Justin is an A+ kind of reference
犹斯丁是一个最好的参考 or point in the emergence of Christianity
或者说是基督教形成的关键人物 But unless, he's not the easiest guy to read
但是他的东西却非常不好读 So when I gave you passages of Justin to read
所以如果我给了你们犹斯丁的东西去读 I'm warning you in advance
我要提前警告你们 If you will sit there reading it the way
如果你坐在那就像是 you read your history textbook
读历史书那样去读 then you sit down and read it
坐下来就开始读 I don't know, there's just two paragraphs
谁知道呢 就只有两段 How hard can it be?
能有多难读 I'll just look at it
随便看看就好 Well, if you do it that way
如果你这样读 You are not gonna understand the work
你会完全没法明白他说的什么 Right? You got to do it slowly
你需要慢慢精读 If you are gonna read it all
最好是能都读一下 And I hope you will
我希望大家能做到 You got to read it slowly
必须慢慢精读 Okay, it means I have respect for the guy, so
也就是说必须要尊重这个家伙 What does Justin do with the Hebrew Bible
犹斯丁对希伯来圣经中 with the law in Hebrew Bible
希伯来圣经律法中的 here represented by circumcision
割礼做了什么呢 So, may I remind you again where Justin is this
再次提醒大家犹斯丁是 Justin is passionately committed to the idea
犹斯丁一直对这个观点咬住不放 that Hebrew Scriptures are our scriptures
希伯来圣经是我们的圣经 We Christians understand
基督徒理解了 the message of the Hebrew Scriptures
希伯来圣经中传递的信息 And you Jews, Trypho, his interlocutor
你们犹太人 特来弗 他的解读 You Jews do not
你们犹太人没有 You Jews think you understand the Scriptures
你们犹太人以为自己理解了圣经 But you really don't
但是其实根本没有 Cos you misapprehend all the key points
因为你们误解了所有的关键点 That's the main theme of the dialogue with Trypho
这就是与特来弗对话的主题 So whenever he turns any Hebrew Biblical passage
所以不管翻开圣经的哪一段 which is on every single page
随便翻开哪一页 Right? And we've seen all the time
而且一直以来 of course is, the point is
重点在于 We Christians interpret it correctly
我们基督徒的解读是正确的 And you Jews misinterpret it
你们犹太人解读是错误的 Now, how does he do that with circumcision?
对于割礼他怎么说的呢 Isn't it very clear in Genesis:17
在创世纪第17章非常清楚 that God says circumcision is to be the Covenant?
上帝说割礼是约 The sign of the Covenant?
是你我之间 Between me and you, forever?
永远的 约的记号 Doesn't it say forever, black and white in Genesis:17
在创世纪第17章里面清楚明白说是永远的了吗 Yep, it does
是的 说了 So what's Justin gonna do?
那么犹斯丁要怎么做呢 How does he gonna get out of this one?
他要如何应对这个问题呢 That's a bad way to put it
这种说法不太好 I'm not accusing him or anything, right
不过我不是想指责他 How was Justin gonna give us
犹斯丁会怎么说呢 Again, a Christian reading of this passage?
基督徒对于这个段落如何解读 of this demand, Genesis:17
创世纪第17章中的这个问题 Not to worry, Justin has a bunch of
不要担心 犹斯丁袖子里面 arguments up in his sleeve, right
藏着一堆辩护词呢 and here we are going to serve a little
我们来讲讲其中一些 The Bible itself shows that
圣经本身告诉我们 one can be righteous before God
就算没有经过身体上的割礼 without physical circumcision
也可以是上帝眼中正直的人 This is perhaps one of his main argument
这个可能就是他主要的论点了 I'll prove to you that physical circumcision
我会证明给你看身体上的割礼 cannot be what God really wants
用刀切掉一块皮肤 cutting off a piece of skin with a knife
不是上帝真正想要的 Because the Scriptures themselves attest to the fact
因为圣经本身证明了 that you could be righteous before God
不管有没有受过割礼 where you have circumcision or not is irrelevant
都可以是上帝眼中正直的人 This fundamentally is the same kind of argument
这基本上和保罗的 that Paul advanced
论证观点一致 Right, Paul used the case of Abraham himself
保罗举出了创世纪第15章中 in Genesis:15
亚伯拉罕的例子 where Abram was pronounced righteous before God
亚伯兰没有受割礼之前就已经是 even without circumcision
上帝眼中正直的人了 So Justin is developing that same kind of argument
犹斯丁的论点基本和这个一样 Most interesting part of that, of course, is
最有趣的部分当然是 From 23.5
从23.5开始 Women can be righteous before God
女人不需要割礼也可以是 without circumcision
上帝眼中正直的人 This is a really terrific argument
这是个有力的论点 that Justin came up with and Paul had not
犹斯丁提出来了而保罗没有 Paul has a strange passage about
保罗有一个奇怪的段落说 He is neither male or female in Christ
在基督中既不是男人也不是女人 I'm not sure exactly what that means
我不知道这到底是什么意思 Cos obviously there are
因为很明显 Christian men and Christian women
男基督徒和女基督徒 Obviously men and women aren't the same
很明显男人和女人不一样 in Paul's version of Christianity
但是在保罗眼中的基督教 I would say that they have
我必须要说男女 separate social roles and social functions
有不同的社会角色和功能 not to mention biological functions
更不要说生理上的功能了 Right, that's pretty obvious
对吧 这很明显 So what does Paul mean when he says
所以当保罗说他既不是男人也不是女人 he's neither male nor female?
我不知道他说的是什么意思 I'm not entirely sure
我不太确定 Neither in fact is anybody else
别人也都不知道 who's actually very cryptic
因为说得很神秘 But it's a great sounding phrase
但是这是个不错的短语 Neither male nor female
非男非女 Justin is taking that kind of argument by saying
而犹斯丁的辩论词说 Since male and female are THE SAME
因为男人和女人是相同的 Meaning, they are both righteous before God
意味着他们都是上帝眼中正直的人 A woman can be as righteous before God as a man
女人在上帝眼中可以和男人一样正直 Prove, therefore, that circumcision is irrelevant
所以得出结论 割礼不重要 Since women, of course, are not circumcised
因为女人当然没有受过割礼 and can't be
也不能受割礼 Now that to my mind is
在我看来 either a bullet argument or stupid argument
这要么是个有力的论点要么是个愚蠢的论点 But I was so carried away by
但是我倾向于 I've taken it as series of arguments
把这当成是一系列论点中的一条 And is in fact, has a series assigned to it
事实上他也有一系列的论点 I wrote a whole book on it
我专门写了本相关的书 Right? Then the gender question of circumcision
我在书里面写到 割礼中的性别问题 will become a standard, as I discussed in my book
会成为一种标准论点 A standard anti-Jewish Christian argument
标准的反犹太基督徒的论点 Namely, circumcision can't be essential
也就是说 割礼并不是成为 to righteousness before God
上帝眼中正直的人的基本条件 Because what you can do is
因为你可以说 half the people alive at one time
有一半的人 who are not circumcised, cannot be circumcised
没有受割礼 不能受割礼 and yet had the potential to be righteous
还是可以成为正直的人 This will be Christian argument
这会成为基督徒 that would endure for the next thousand years
在接下来的几千年里面 in Christian anti-Jewish writing
反犹太文章使用的论点 What does the Jew say in reply to the argument?
而犹太人又是如何回应的呢 Okay, first of all you have to say
首先必须要说 Why do you assume that circumcision
为什么你们要假设割礼 has anything to do with righteousness
和正直有关系呢 Notice you are really stacking the deck
注意这是在先入为主 Alright, by saying that circumcision somehow
说割礼在某种程度上 is the function of righteousness
有正直的功用 I would say if God demands it
我会说如果上帝要求了 It can't be unjust or unrighteous
就不会是不公平或者不正义 But why do you assume
但是你为什么假设 that's the category, that's the bucket
这种情况之下 which we should put it in?
要把割礼放到这个类别 The circumcision is essential to righteousness
割礼是正直的基础 Well, that already prejudges the argument
这就已经预先判定了论点 So Jews would say in reply
所以犹太人会回答 That's, you know, well
这是 你知道的 Righteousness is very nice
正直非常的好 But that's why it has been short of
但是为什么就一直没有 the right categories to put it in
正确的归类呢 And we saw the passage in
我们在周一读过 Mishnah Nedarim on Monday
Mishnah Nedarim Where I think Judah the Patriarch
里面犹太人的族长 is rendering is precisely this point
正是被赋予这个角色 There's not the whole category
没有一个类别被 you assigned as righteousness
指定为是正直的 It's a category called perfection
但是有一个类别叫做完善 Now you will then ask
现在如果你问 why do men need perfection and not women?
为什么男人需要完善而女人不需要 Ah, that's a very very interesting question
这是个非常有趣的问题 But that's not the same question any more
但是这已经不是同一个问题了 That's already something different
已经是另外一个问题了 Right, men need to be adjusted
男人需要完善自身 Women don't need adjustment
女人不需要 Okay, there I've done medieval thinkers
这是中世纪思想家的观点 I think that's Chapter 5
我想是第5章 or whatever chapter in the book
或者其他哪个章节 But the standard Jewish way of reply
但是犹太人标准的回答是 One way to be a reply is to say
一种回应的方式是 It's such as prejudging the question
这是对问题的预先判定 by putting it in the righteousness category
把问题放到了正直的类别 all the commandments belong to the righteousness
所有的戒律都属于正直的类别 to be sure why you'll prejudge this one in this way
但是要知道为什么你要预先判定这个问题 The other Jewish argument might be to say is
犹太人另外一种回答是 Well, I'm talking too much about this
这个问题我讲的太多了 Okay, enough
好了 够了 Interested, just read my book
如果感兴趣就去看我的书 I'm on 23, 1.2, 92.5
分别是23 1.2 92.5 We are gonna come up back
我们后面会再次 to this argument again later
回到这个话题上的 God is immutable
上帝是永恒的 God does not change
上帝不会改变 Or to use the language of philosophers
或者用哲学家的语言 Which we'll discuss in a couple of weeks
我们后面几周会讲到 God does not move
上帝不会移动 Cos motion implies change
因为移动意味着改变 Change implies corruption
改变意味着堕落 Corruption implies death
堕落意味着死亡 But God is none of those
而上帝不在此列 Therefore God does not move
所以说上帝不会移动 God is immutable
上帝是永恒的 Change, and God
改变和上帝 You can't talk about change in the question of God
谈及上帝的问题不会涉及到改变 This is a philosophical perspective on God
这是哲学家对于上帝的看法 Which we'll come back to in a couple of weeks
我们后面几周还会讲到 This is what Justin says
犹斯丁这样说 God is immutable
上帝是永恒的 Therefore, God cannot have
因此上帝不会每天都 come up one day with a new idea
想出来点儿什么新玩意 Right, the humans could be justice before God
人类在创世纪第17章之前 without circumcision before Genesis:17
没有受过割礼也是上帝眼中正直的人 And all of a sudden, astounding, in Genesis:17
突然间 令人难以置信地 在创世纪第17章 Onwards, you have to be circumcised
你就必须要受割礼了 You can't change your mind
你不能在中间 in the middle of the games
改变游戏规则 Especially not if you are the God
特别是对上帝而言 You can't change the rules
不能改变规则 The rules are the rules are the rules
规则就是规则 Now that is also extraordinarily interesting argument
这也是一个非同一般的有趣论点 What would a Christian say in reply on that?
基督徒会如何应答呢 Cos according to Christian thinking
因为根据基督徒的想法 God did change the rules
上帝会改变规则 God brought Christ into the world
上帝把基督带到人间 He has a whole world before the
在通过基督升华之前 sublimation through Christ
是另外一个世界 Then some dramatic event happens
然后戏剧性的事情发生了 Now Christ is in the world
基督降临到世界上 Isn't that a good example of
这难道不是上帝改变 God changing the rules?
的一个很好的例子吗 So why is it so absurd to say
所以为什么说上帝 God didn't have circumcision
没有受过割礼是很荒诞的 Now God has circumcision
上帝受过割礼 Yes?
请说 I mean, God changed the rules in the very beginning
我想说上帝是在一开始就改变了规则 when he takes out from the Garden of Eden, right?
当他从伊甸园出现的时候 对吧 Yes, but it's actually a very tricky argument, right
是的 这其实是个很狡猾诡辩 well there you can say in reply in God's defense
你可以说 从上帝的角度说 You know, he gave the rules
他给出了规则 Anybody didn't obey the rules will get punished
任何不遵守规则的人会受到惩罚 It's not his fault
这不是他的错 You know, hey, I get the rules up front
因为他已经提前给出规则了 You know, it's not my fault you didn't obey the rules
不遵循规则不是我的错 So they are getting punished
他们因此收到惩罚 You don't get your paper on time
如果没有按时交作业 you get penalized
也会得到处罚 You know, just that's the rules
这就是规矩 So that I'm not sure exactly the same thing
但是我不确定这是一回事儿 But any case, this notion of immutability of God
但是任何情况下 这种上帝是永恒的想法 is very tricky and slippery argument
都是一种狡猾的诡辩 Especially for Christians, right?
特别是对基督徒 对吧 The Rabbinic Jews can say in reply
犹太拉比可以回应说 God has always had the Torah
上帝从创造整个世界开始 from the beginning of the creation of the world
就一直都有Torah He's never not had the Torah
他一直都有Torah Okay, we are riding very deep waters here
这是个很高深的问题了 But we'll looking back and look at the theme
但是我们后面几周还会 in a couple of weeks down the road
回头讲到这个问题 The immutability of God
上帝是永恒的 But anyway, this Justin is trying to
但是不管怎么样 犹斯丁 use that as an argument here, too
都在使用这个论点 I's not fair of God to change the rules
上帝在中间改变游戏规则 in the middle of the game
是不公平的 In Genesis:16, you don't need circumcision
在创世纪第16章 不需要割礼 But Genesis:17, you do need circumcision
到了创世纪第17章 就需要割礼了 That can't be the way God works
上帝不能这个样子 To which sober-minded Jew would say
而头脑冷静的犹太人会说 Yes, I agree with you, comma
是的 我同意你的观点 But we have something to talk about there, right?
但是我们要有讨论的东西 对吧 This is not such a simple case
这是个简单的例子 Okay, let's move there
好了 咱们继续 What kind of circumcision
什么样的割礼 does God really want?
才是上帝真正想要的 Well, we already know the answer to that
我们已经知道了这个问题的答案 Circumcision of the heart
对心灵的割礼 Where the language we usually use
或者换个说法是 Spiritual circumcision
精神的割礼 That's the circumcision that God really wants
这才是上帝真正想要的割礼 And Justin talks about that
犹斯丁也说过这样的话 Then we have the giant problem
然后我们有个大问题 If God really wants spiritual circumcision
如果上帝想要的是精神的割礼 If God really wants circumcision of the heart
如果上帝想要的是心灵的割礼 And if God does not really want
如果上帝不是想要 physical, corporeal, bodily
身体上的 肉体的 肉身的 sarcous circumcision, comma
对肌肉的割礼 If that's not the circumcision
如果这不是上帝 that God really wants, comma
真正想要的割礼 Then, why did God tell Abraham
那么为什么上帝让亚伯拉罕 to circumcise himself and his son
和他的儿子受割礼 apparently in the flesh?
很明显是对肉体的割礼 That's pretty clear that's what it says
这一点是非常清楚的 I understand that you Christians
我明白你们基督徒 are arguing that
不同意这一点 that what God really wants
上帝真正想要的 is the circumcision of the heart
是对心灵的割礼 Okay, fine, I'll accept that
好吧 我接受 But explain to me why then in Genesis:17
但是解释下为什么到了创世纪第17章 This God actually asks Abraham to
同一个上帝会要求亚伯拉罕 circumcise himself and his descendants
对自己和他的子嗣行割礼 And apparently, in a physical way
而且很明显是对肉体的割礼 I know it's not the one what God really wants
我知道这不是上帝真正想要的 But then why did he is gonna say it?
那么为什么他要这样要求呢 That's the big question
这才是大问题 that's the million-dollar question
价值连城的问题 And here comes Justin's answer
而犹斯丁如此回答 Why did Abraham receive
为什么亚伯拉罕 the command of circumcision?
收到了行割礼的指令 Abraham's circumcision
亚伯拉罕的割礼是 is a sign of faith that he had
他还没有行割礼之前 while not yet circumcised
的信念的记号 That seems to be citation of Romans:4
这一点似乎在罗马书第4章得到了印证 The passage I alluded to earlier
我之前提到过的段落 So yes, Abraham is circumcised in the flesh
是的 亚伯拉罕是对肉体的割礼 But his circumcision in the flesh
但是他对肉体的割礼 is not the circumcision of flesh itself
不是对肉体本身的割礼 that has the value
这才是价值所在 It is what that circumcision portends
这才是割礼的预兆 What that circumcision represents
这才是割礼代表的意义 Here we come back to
这里我们提到了 the language of sign of faith
信念的记号 So this paradoxical language
这个似是而非的说法 we have read in Paul
我们读到过保罗 that the physical circumcision
说过对肉体的割礼 is only of significance in so far
不过是因为他代表着 as it represents the faith that Abraham had
亚伯拉罕的信念而已 I don't quite understand exactly
我不是非常明白 what Paul means by that argument
保罗的什么意思 I don't quite understand exactly
我不是非常明白 what Justin is saying
犹斯丁说的什么 I know it's the same argument
但是我知道这是同样的论点 And in fact, it is very possible Justin here
而且事实上非常可能犹斯丁 is actually quoting, alluding, paraphrasing Paul
在此引用了 暗指 改写了保罗的话 Footnote, did Justin know the writings of Paul?
补充说明 犹斯丁了解保罗的作品吗 Answer not clear
答案是不清楚 In the Dialogue with Trypho
在对特来弗的对话中 He never once cites the writings of Paul
他从来没有引用过保罗的字句 Not clear does he have the writings of Paul
不太清楚他是否看过保罗的作品 He never gets them
他从来没看过 His writing was around the year 160
他的创作时间大概是公元160年 So, not clear
所以不太清楚 So when Justin is doing those
所以当犹斯丁 separating out the circumcision
将亚伯拉罕在创世纪第17章 of Abraham himself, Genesis:17
的割礼和他的子嗣的割礼 from the circumcision of his descendants
分开讨论的时候 Circumcision of Abraham himself was a good thing
亚伯拉罕自己的割礼是好的 Commanded by God
受上帝之命 Circumcision of the body
对身体的割礼 But that circumcision of Abraham himself
但是亚伯拉罕自己的割礼 is only of significance because
有重要意义只是因为 it betokens the faith, or the sign of faith
这代表着信念 是亚伯拉罕 that Abraham had
信念的记号 And if you say in reply, I don't quite get that
如果你说 我没太弄明白 I don't understand why
我不明白为什么 he needs a physical circumcision
他需要身体上的割礼 to be a sign of faith
来作为没受割礼 that he has without circumcision
的他信念的记号 Well, yeah, I'm with you
这点我也认同 I don't quite get it either
我也没太明白 But that's Paul
但是保罗这样说 And that's Justin
还有犹斯丁也这样说 But, now comes to the novelty
但是现在有了新的疑问 Why then do Abraham's descendants
为什么亚伯拉罕的子嗣 Namely, the Jews
也就是犹太人 Why the Abraham's descendants
为什么亚伯拉罕的子嗣 need to be circumcised in the flesh
需要对身体的割礼 So Abraham himself will say
亚伯拉罕他自己说 The architect, the founder figure
始作俑者 创始人物 is circumcised in the body to represent
对身体的割礼代表着 something relative to faith
一些和信念相关的东西 Okay, I'll buy that because, okay, I'll buy that
我相信这一点 因为 我相信这一点 But then why through generations forever
但是为什么一代一代的后人 are the Israelites commanded to circumcise
也就是以色列人被要求受割礼 in the body, in the flesh
对身体的血肉的割礼 Again, if what God really wants
如果上帝想要的 is not the bodily circumcision
不是身体上的割礼 What God really wants is the spiritual
上帝真正想要的是精神上的 a metaphorical circumcision
隐喻性的割礼 Here Justin makes a very important move
在这里犹斯丁走出了重要的一步 And with this, we are well beyond what Paul said
而这远远超过了保罗的观点 Justin says the circumcision of Abraham
犹斯丁说亚伯拉罕的割礼 is commanded by God
是受上帝之命 because this is part and part so
因为这是上帝的 of God's salvation history
救赎史的一部分 and Abraham as an important figure
亚伯拉罕在救赎史里面 in the salvation history of Abraham
是一个重要人物 representing salvation through faith
代表了通过信念得到救赎 But, Abraham's descendants, the Jews
但是亚伯拉罕的子嗣 犹太人 They are circumcising the body not because
他们对身体的割礼不是因为 This is God looking out for their salvation
上帝在寻找救赎 Not because God is rewarding them for their faith
不是因为上帝在褒奖他们的信念 Not because this is a sign of faith
不是因为这是信念的记号 or sign of the Covenant
或者约的记号 which is true for Abraham
这些都是对亚伯拉罕而言 It's because God is punishing them
这是因为上帝在惩罚他们 Now this is a dramatic new argument
这是一个戏剧性的新论点 that Paul would never have said
保罗从来没有提起过 But Justin does
但是犹斯丁说了 May I remind you, Paul was a Jew
我要提醒大家 保罗是犹太人 Justin was ethnically a gentile
犹斯丁是非犹太异教徒 So, Paul has sentimental attachment
所以保罗对于犹太人和犹太的东西 to the Jewish people and Jewish things
有感情上的寄托 Justin of course, has none
犹斯丁当然没有 So what does Justin say?
犹斯丁说了什么呢 Circumcision makes Jews distinctive from other man
割礼使得犹太人和其他人区分开来 marks out Jews for punishment
标记出受到惩罚的犹太人 Here Justin seems to referring
这里犹斯丁似乎在引用 It's a little cryptic what he is talking about
他说的东西有点含糊不清 He seems to be referring to the aftermath
似乎是在引用巴尔柯赫巴起义 of the Bar Kokhba War
的最终后果 Right, they had been a great
他们有一次 rebellion against the Romans
对罗马的伟大叛乱 which culminated in the destruction of the temple
导致了神庙的最终毁灭 That was the year 70 CE
这是在公元70年 There had been another uprising 67 years later
67年之后还有一次 132-135, the uprising by
公元132到135年 Bar Kokhba, Bar Kochba, whatever
由Bar Kokhba或者拼成Bar Kochba领导 Not well attested, because we don't have
没有经过证实 因为我们没有 any ancient historian to give us a story
古历史学家给出起义的故事 which has pieces and pieces of story, episodes
只有一些故事的片段 章节 and many references to this uprising
以及一些相关的参考资料 But, as I mentioned earlier
但是我之前提到过 This uprising has major repercussions
这次起义有非常重要的影响 It's with this uprising that we have
通过这次起义有了 the de-Judaization of Judea
犹太地区的去犹太化 what the Romans in reply, in reprisal
罗马人对此的回应 报复 changed the name to Palestina
把地名改成了巴勒斯坦 kicked out all Jews from Jerusalem
把耶路撒冷和周边地区 and from the area around Jerusalem
所有的犹太人都赶了出去 And there is persist tradition of
一直有一些 some kind of religious prosecution
和平息叛乱有关的 associated with putting down the rebellion
宗教方面的指控 So Justin seems to be alluding to some
所以犹斯丁似乎 or all of these acts when he says
暗指这些成为 他说 By being circumcised
受割礼 you Jews are being signed
犹太人就有了记号 marked out for persecution
被标记成受害者 The fact is, Jews are recognizable
事实是犹太人很容易辨别 And consequently, you are open to punishment
导致的结果就是愿意接受惩罚 Footnote, Jewish meant this
补充一点 是犹太人意味着 are open to punishment
愿意接受惩罚 This is how we understand sign
这就是我们对于记号的理解 All of a sudden, not sign of faith
突然间 不是信念的记号 Sign of Covenant, sign of faith
约的记号 信念的记号 just in the case of Abraham
在亚伯拉罕的故事中 But sign meaning a sign of a Jewish difference
被标记意味着标记出犹太人的不同 A way of marking out Jews as
一种在犹太人身上 Jews in the body, Jewish difference
标记出犹太人的不同的方法 so as to be open to punishment, harassment, etc.
也就是愿意接受惩罚 骚扰等等 This is Justin
这就是犹斯丁 In the society, aka America
在像美国这的社会中 where lots and lots of men are circumcised
很多男人都割过包皮 It is not a sign of difference to be circumcised
所以受割礼不是不同的标记 If you are living in the Muslim country
如果你生活在穆斯林国家 where all the men are circumcised
所有的男人都受过割礼 It's not a sign of difference to be circumcised
受割礼就不是不同的标记 But, if you are living in a society where
但是如果你生活在一个社会中 only people around are circumcised, are Jews
只有犹太人才受割礼 Then, in fact, it is a sign of difference
那么事实上这就是不同的标记 Right, then there's many such stories
有很多的故事 about the Holocaust, right?
关于大屠杀 对吧 That a Jewish woman can hide out much more
犹太女人相对犹太男人来说 readily than a Jewish man can hide out
就更加容易藏起来 Right, look at the movie Europa Europa
看看电影欧罗巴欧罗巴 which is all about this theme
就是关于这个主题 So Justin is saying, that's what God wanted
犹斯丁说 这就是上帝想要的 God's marking you out for punishment
上帝让你们标记出来好惩罚你们 This is not an incidental by-product of circumcision
这不是那种附带性的割礼 It's the point
这才是重点 So he says
他这样说 Okay, that's
好了 另外 I'm not sure how serious the argument that is
我不知道这条论点有多严谨 But that maybe simply is taking advantage of
不过可能很容易获得 the temporary news reports to say
新闻报道的关注 This makes easier to discover who's the Jew
这样会很容易发现犹太人 in order to punish you
以便于惩罚你 in order to be punished
以便于被惩罚 The argument that will have legs
这个论点能站得住脚 that we'll see now repeated again and again
我们会经常一遍一遍重复 throughout Justin's writing is the second one
的犹斯丁作品 是第二条 Circumcision, Sabbath, all the festivals
割礼 安息日 所有的节日 are given to Israelites
都赋予以色列人 because of their hardness of heart
因为他们心如铁石 God is punishing you
上帝在惩罚你们 because you Jews are
因为犹太人 rebelling against God all the time
一直在反抗上帝 What's your evidence for that?
有什么相关的证据吗 Jews rebelling against God all the time?
犹太人一直在反抗上帝 What's your evidence?
有什么证据 The Bible?
圣经 The Bible, right
圣经 没错 Open up the Bible and read
打开圣经读一读 I mean, read wherever you look
随便看看哪段 You know, everywhere you look
不管看的是哪一章 Jews are rebelling against God
犹太人都在反抗上帝 Going or hording after other Gods
追随着其他的神 being faithless and disloyal
没有信念又不忠 And the prophets didn't threatening
先知没有威胁说 this doomed destruction
会有毁灭性的破坏 and the narratives are
而故事中间 all about doomed destructions
都是毁灭性的破坏 So Justin knows that
犹斯丁知道 the Jews are rebellious against God
犹太人在反抗上帝 because the Bible says so
因为圣经如是说 And if you say, the Bible is talking about Israelites
如果你说 圣经说的是以色列人 who lived centuries earlier
好几个世纪以前的事情了 you know, Justin is living in the year 160
犹斯丁生活在公元160年 The Bible is talking about
圣经说的是 five, eight hundred years earlier
500年800年以前的事情 So what kind of evidence is that, Justin?
所以这算什么证据呢 犹斯丁 What's your answer?
你的回答是 We did this
我们讲过的 I gave you the answer already
我已经告诉你们答案了 I gave the answer weeks ago already
我几个星期之前就告诉你们答案了 What's the answer?
答案是什么 So the Israelites are 800 years ago
以色列人是在800年以前 rebelling against God
反抗上帝的 What does that have to do with me, Justin?
这和我们有什么关系呢 犹斯丁 I'm living in the year 160 CE
我生活在公元160年 You know, get with it
所以好好算算 You know, Isaiah is talking about the year 700 BCE
以赛亚书说的是公元前700年 Hosea is talking about 720, 750 BCE, right?
何西阿书说的是公元前720年 750年 Jeremiah is talking about 600 BCE
耶利米书说的是公元前600年 Give me a break
别开玩笑了 Class, do Jews and Christians read
同学们 犹太人和基督徒 these Biblical texts contextually?
是遵从上下文读圣经的吗 Do they read them as historical context
是把圣经当成历史事件 or these are meant to be read
或者有意识的来读吗 these are eternally true?
这些是永恒的真理吗 Eternally true
是永恒的真理 So of course it's talking about you
当然是在说你们的事情 In the 2nd century CE
在公元2世纪 Don't tell me it's all about the Israelites
不要和我说什么以色列人 800 BCE, 700 BCE
公元前800年 公元前700年 It's talking about you
说的就是你们的事情 You Jews are in fact rebellious
犹太人就是在反抗 You've always been, it's a constant
一直在造反 这是肯定的 It's eternally true
这是永恒的真理 And of course for us Christians
当然我们基督徒 The greatest piece of evident of course of all
所有证据中最重要的一条 is the Jews crucified Christ
犹太人把耶稣钉上了十字架 I thought the Romans did that
我以为是罗马人干的 No, no, no, they got that wrong
不不不 都错了 It's the Jews are responsible for it
犹太人才应该对此负责 So when you have such a bunch of
当你手上有这么多 rebellious sinners on your hand
反抗的罪人 What does God do? God punishes them
上帝会怎么做 上帝惩罚他们 That's one language Justin has
这就是犹斯丁的观点 With other version of it is
或者还有其他版本 Not the God punishes them
不是上帝惩罚他们 But God Know how rebellious they are
但是上帝知道他们在反抗 And therefore, God hips upon them
因此上帝让他们陷入 an endless series of meaningless
无尽的没有任何意义的 rituals and requirements
仪式和要求之中 You want to keep them off the streets
想让他们远离街道 out of trouble, and dedicated to God
远离麻烦 献身于上帝 And do we Christians need this stuff?
我们基督徒需要这些东西吗 Do we Christians need
我们基督徒需要 this endless ritual reminders?
这些无尽的仪式来提醒吗 Do we Christians need to
我们基督徒需要 be punished in this way?
以这种方式被惩罚吗 Of course not
当然不需要 So what Justin's saying is that the God
所以犹斯丁说上帝 with these ritual requirements
用这些希伯来圣经中的 in the Hebrew Scriptures
仪式和要求 Those are not meant to be eternal
这些都不是上帝 requirements by God
永恒的需求 That's a way of being in good relationship with God
不是和上帝保持良好关系的方法 Rather, it's a sign of divine anger
而是一种神的愤怒的标志 It's a sign of God being unhappy with Israelites
是上帝对以色列人不满意的标志 God is punishing them
上帝在惩罚他们 or hipping up upon them this endless series
或者让他们一直陷在这些 of meaningless nonsense codes and rituals
无尽的没有意义的仪式中 like circumcision
比如说割礼 Now, last point, there I get one minute
最后一个重点 我还有1分钟 This argument, the argument that
这个论点 这个论点是 many of the rituals in the Hebrew Scripture
在希伯来圣经中的很多仪式 food laws, Sabbath laws, circumcision, right
食物律法 安息日律法 割礼 are not really desired by God
都不是上帝真正想要的 But rather are punishments by God
而是上帝的一种惩罚 or meaningless ways of keeping Israelites busy
或者一种没有意义的让以色列人忙碌的方法 cos God knows how rebellious they are
因为上帝知道以色列人在反抗 This argument will not have legs
这个论点站不住脚 Cos this argument in fact is a very tricky one
因为这个论点对于基督徒来说 for a Christian to maintain
很难完全站住脚 Cos if you maintain this argument
因为如果你坚持这个论点 what are you saying?
你会怎么说 You are saying the God of the Hebrew Bible
你说希伯来圣经中的上帝 Is this a loving God?
是可敬的上帝 Is this a God who wants our salvation
这个上帝想让我们得到救赎 Or are you saying this is a mean God
或者说这个上帝是卑劣的上帝 This is a bad God
是一个坏上帝 This is a God who's
这个上帝 not looking out for your welfare
不会关心你的福利 Is that what you are saying?
你会这样说吗 Well, just not say you are coming perilously close
那么 并不是说你再次非常 back to that position
接近之前的论点 Justin wants to deny the argument
犹斯丁想要否定这个论点 that the Old Testament God is not
说旧约中的上帝 the God of New Testament
不是新约中的上帝 That is God is not the God
这个上帝不是那个 who's looking out for your salvation
想让你们得到救赎的上帝 Right, we are coming perilously close to
我们现在立场非常接近 the position of the Marcionites
马吉安所持的观点 Therefore, this argument
因此这个论点 will not carrying forward
没有继续流传下去 It's distinctive of Justin
不同于犹斯丁 and a couple of other ancient texts
和其他一些古老的文本 but for the most part
但是这个论点 this argument does not carry forward
的大部分都没有继续流传下去 whereas the argument about
反而是关于割礼是记号 circumcision being a sign, spiritual circumcision
的论点 精神的割礼的论点 Those arguments will endure in Christian history
一直在基督教的历史中流传 Okay, everybody
好了 同学们 Have a wonderful weekend for
周末愉快 If you are celebrating the Jewish new year
如果你庆祝犹太新年 wish you a Chanukah Sameach
祝你光明节快乐 Khag Urim Sameakh
光明节开心 If you are not celebrating the Jewish new year
如果你不想庆祝犹太新年 I wish you a lovely weekend
希望周末愉快 And I'll see you on Monday [Rhine & trismile Production]
周一再见