02 伊拉克高级法院 豁免的终结 02 - Iraqi High Tribunal_ The End of Immunity
康奈尔大学出品 This is a production of Cornell University
下午好 欢迎大家 Good afternoon and welcome!
大家可能不认识我 For those of you who don't know me,
我叫拉里波什 my name is Larry Boshen.
代表克拉克中东基金会 On behalf of the Clark Middle East Fund
我很乐意看啊哦你们来参加 I'm pleased towelcome you today to this the firstformal
第一次正式的活动 今天我们中东的同事 event at which our Clark Middle East fellow Judge Rayed
Rayed Al Seedy会进行演讲 Al Seedy will be speaking.
我们的主管斯图尔特Schwab先生 Judge Rayed will be introduced now by our dean
将会介绍瑞法官 Stewart Schwab.
非常感谢 我很荣幸 Thank you very much! It's a great pleasure for me
能介绍尊敬的Rayed Al Seedy to introduce the honorable Rayed Julia Seedy
康奈尔法学院中东分支 the Judge Chief Clerk of the Middle East fellow
的主要负责人 at Cornell Law School.
瑞法官之前是伊拉克高级法院 Judge Rayed was formerly the chief investigator judge
的主管调查法官 of the Iraqi High Tribunal,the court which investigated
审判了萨达姆侯赛因以及 and tried Saddam Hussein and other former leaders of
其他犯有种族灭绝 战争罪 our arc for genocide, war crimes
和反人类罪行的前任领导人 and crimes against humanity.
瑞法官1993年毕业于巴格达大学 Judge Rayed graduated from the University of Baghdad
获得了法学学士学位 in 1993 with a Bachelor of Law degree.
接着他在伊拉克司法培训机构 He then did his further legal education
接受了法学上的深造 at the Judicial Training Institute of Iraq in
即刑事调查 在那他是致告别词的学生代表 criminal investigation where he was the valedictorian
后来学习司法科学时 of that class and later the Judicial Institute of Iraq
他成为了整个机构的佼佼者 where he studied Judicial Sciences.
1997年作为实习生在巴格达工作后 After working as an internee in Baghdad in 1997
他被推举担任高级司法调查员 he was promoted to the senior judicial investigator
负责监管主要犯罪中的其他调查者 where he supervised other investigators inmajor crimes.
2002年担任调查法官时他被指派为 In2002 he was appointed by the Iraqi Minister of Justice
伊拉克司法部部长 as the investigative judge an alum anaphora in Iraq
后来被内志最高法院任命为 and later appointed by the Supreme Court of Najd
调查法官 as an investigative judge.
接着又被保尔布雷默大使任命为 He was then appointed by Ambassador Paul Bremer
大法官和伊拉克司法顾问 and Chief Justice and the Iraqi Judicial Counsel
作为新成立的伊拉克主要刑事法院 to serve as the investigative judge for the newly formed
的调查法官 Central Criminal Court of Iraq.
2004年8月伊拉克总理阿亚德阿拉维 And in August 2004 Iraqi Prime Minister Ayad Alawi
以及首席法官任命瑞法官 with the Chief Justice appointed judge Rayed
为伊拉克高级法院的调查法官 as the investigative judge for the Iraqi High Tribunal
接着他的同事们选举他为 then his fellow judges elected him
高级法院的总调查法官 the Chief Investigative Judge of that tribunal.
在那里他展现出 And there he just served in a number
非凡的能力 of prominent capacities.
瑞法官调查并提交审判了 Judge Rayed investigated and referred for trial
阿杜贾的案件 这是第一例控诉萨达姆 the Al Dujal case, the first case against Saddam Hussein
以及七名犯有反人类罪的被告的案件 and seven court defendants for crimes against humanity.
后来他调查了第二宗未尘封的案件 Later investigated the unfold case the second case against
控诉了萨达姆和六名对伊拉克无辜善良的人民 Saddam Hussein and six court defendants for genocide,
犯有种族灭绝罪反人类罪 crime against humanity and war crimes committed
以及战争罪的犯人 against the courteous people of Iraq.
实际上瑞法官的这些经历 It's actually quite an exciting and really unique
非常激动人心而独特 experience that Judge Rayed has had.
2007年康奈尔法学院的克拉克 In 2007 Cornell Law School's Clark Center
国际比较法学研究中心邀请他 for International Comparative Legal Study invited him
作为克拉克中东事务的人员 to be the Clark Middle East fellow and that's where
从那时起他开始成为我们的一员 he has been this academic year serving as our
他现在和妻子 三个孩子 Clark fellow. He is residing in Ethica with his wife
定居在Ethica and three children.
我很荣幸介绍瑞法官给大家 It's been a great pleasure to introduce judge Rayed.
下午好女士们先生们 Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen,
非常感谢 I thank you so much.
感谢你们今天邀请我来 I thank you so much for having me today and it's so great
在康奈尔法学院演讲的感觉实在不错 to talk in the Cornell University Law School.
这所学校让我有幸能在这里工作 This school has gave me honor's offer to work here
并从事我的研究 and make my research.
Schwab系主任提到过 As Dean Schwab has mentioned according to my position
我曾在伊拉克高级法院担任总调查法官 as a chief investigative judge in the Iraqi High Tribunal
我现在会谈一谈在那里的一些经验 I'm looking now just to talk a little bit
我们如何成立了伊拉克高级法院 about our experience there, how we created the Iraqi
以及为什么要成立 High Tribunal and why.
还有就是我们遇到的技术和法律上的挑战 And what the technical and legal challenges we had.
起初我以为谈一谈法学分析 演讲会很重要 In the beginning I thought it's important to talk legal
不过后来我想 这里有那么多教授 analyzing, legal speech but I thought after that
都谈到这些 there is many professors will focus about this court
讲的比我详细 又深入浅出 and will details many many parts there.
因此我要讲的重点就是面对的挑战 For that reason I will focus now for the challenges,
技术和法律上的 technical and legals.
这座法院是2003年作为伊拉克司法系统 This court established as independent court of
的独立分支法院而成立的 the Iraqi judicial system 2003 and the name
当初的名字是伊拉克专门法院 in the beginning Iraqi Special Tribunal and
后来2005年改名为伊拉克高级法院 the name is replaced after that by law number
编号为10 10 2005 as Iraqi High Tribunal.
成立这座法院时 很多伊拉克专家 When they established this court many of Iraqi experts,
法学认识 many of Iraqi's legal peoples,
是为了把它建立为国际法院似的独立机构 they are looking for the international court.
就像南斯拉夫法院和卢旺达法院 Court like Yugoslavia, Ruanda, you know,
不过说实话要建立那样的法院 but frankly to establish court like that we have to
我们必须征得安全理事会的决议 have a resolution from the security council.
没有办法能得到那样的许可 And there is no option to and no way to have any decision
因为俄国 法国和中国 from the security council or the Russian, French,
都极力反对战争 China is there because all of them is against the war.
那样要在伊拉克成立法院 For that reason to establish rule of law in Iraq
就只有一个选择 成立独立法院 there is only one choice, it's the Master Court.
我们就那么做了 And we are establishing.
法院的成立收到了来自不同的领域 The court has had many many many criticize,
非常众多的批评声 不过同时 different fields, but the same time there is many things
也有不错的 没人在意这些 is good in this court but no one is focus for this.
人们批评这所法院 把它和国际法院 People criticize this court and comparing
国际标准的法院相比 with the international level, international standards
蔑视伊拉克的法律和司法系统 and mess the Iraqi rule of law, the Iraqi legal system.
同时他们也破坏了很重要的东西 And also they mess very important things,
他们忘却了从1958到2003年 they mess the Iraqi bloody history last half century
长达半个世纪的伊拉克血的历史 from 1958 until 2003.
把历史和法院 我们有的事务相比 And compare this history with the court, what we had.
历史是尤为重要的 The history is very important.
1958年伊拉克第一人政府 The first government in Iraq 1958 when they took
掌权时 在同一天他们处决了 over the authority they execute the king of Iraq
伊拉克国王和王室家族 and his family in same day.
1963年警察 巴尔特最早的警察 The second cop 1963 when the first cop of the Barthes
当他们掌权时 他们在一小时的暴力审判中 when they took over the authority they killed the prime
杀掉了首相和他的随从 minister and his assistant within one hour brutal trial.
1979年的第一天 萨达姆登上最高位时 1979 the first day when Saddam took over the presidency,
6月做了简短的演讲后 after small speech in July they execute many of
他们没经过审判就处决了很多巴尔特的成员 the Barthes member without any trial
因为他们需要为前总统哈桑 because they always will pay for the ex president Amad
付出代价 Hassan backup and they against his rule 1979.
这点在伊拉克历史上非常重要 This point is very important in Iraqi history
法学人士们肩负的改善这种状况 and this responsibility for the legal people to improve
改变伊拉克现状 为伊拉克人民 this situation and change the picture for Iraq and
谋求未来幸福的责任十分艰巨 for Iraqi people.
那样我们认为在伊拉克建立法治十分关键 For that reason we thought it is important to have rule
那么我们如何建立法制? of law in Iraq. How we can create this rule of law?
同时联合国又拒绝了成立国际法庭 And the UN in same time refused to create
我们还有其他办法吗? the International Court. Must be have another solution?
这个办法就是建立自己的独立法院 This solution is the Master Court.
当我们成立法院时 就我的职责而言 When we start in this court and according to my position
我需要成立调查组 I have to build the investigation session and
需要在庭上审判这些案子 I have to build the cases in this court.
如何建立案件的案卷? Our speech today, how to build these cases?
我们面对的有多少挑战? How many challenges we have there?
是何种挑战? Which kind of challenges?
首先的挑战就是为数众多的受害者 The first challenge we have the numbers of the victims,
究竟有多少受害者? how many victims we have?
1988年2月到9月 伊拉克北部 North of Iraq 1988 February until 1988 September
前任政权遗留下来的Del Amfal组织 ex regimes killed more than 100,000 civilian people,
杀害了10多万名平民 person in operation called Del Amfal.
他们袭击了伊拉克北部的库尔德人 They attack the Kurdish population North of Iraq,
摧毁了4000多个村庄 they destroyed more than 4,000 villages
杀害了10多万名平民 and killed more than 100,000 civilian person.
巴格达南部的则是另一番残破 South of Baghdad until south of Iraq there is
1991年当伊拉克歌剧团从科威特回国时 another story, there is 1991 when the Iraqi troups
那里有另一场反对当权政府的革命 is back from the Kuwait, and there is another revolution
政府动用了军事力量 against the regime, the regime used forces
镇压平民 杀害了 against the civilian and they killed more than
超过20万的伊拉克百姓 200,000 Iraqi civilian person.
1979到2003之间是不同的 From 1979 till 2003 there is different.
政策不同 发起的反对当权政府 There is different in policy and different systematic
的行动策划也截然不同 against the parties in Iraq.
总之 5月份我们开始成立法院 Anyway we are start in May to establish this court
创建了文件 统计了受害者人数 and to created the documents, number of victims,
大量的陵墓 基金 以及如何 massive graves, fundings and how we can dealing with
处理这些人 被告 this kind of people, the defendants,
都是当权的角色 manipulative characters.
同时我们估计还有很多政治镇压 And also we suppose and assume there is a lot of politic
要做出改变 需要面对巨大的挑战 suppression. To change that's mean that's big challenges.
受害者数目绝不是小事 Numbers of victims, I mentioned before small things.
北部是10万 North of Iraq there is 100,000, south of Iraq
南部则是超过20万 there is more than 200,000.
法庭每天接受成百上千名受害者 The court start receives hundreds of victims daily;
他们从南部 北部来到法庭所在地 they came from south, north, to the main office.
起初我们只在巴格达有一个办事处 In the beginning we just have one office in Baghdad
那不是所有的 我们不得不将情形 and frankly that's not all, we have to make our situation
和程序简化 our process easy.
那样 我们又成立了4个办事处 2个在北部 For that reason we are created 4 offices, 2 north
1个在Sulimania 1个在Irbil or Iraq one in Sulimania, one in Irbil to cover the north
1个在南部的巴士拉 region, one down south of Iraq in Basra to cover
1个在中部的Najav the south region, one in the middle of Iraq in Najav to
以及巴格达的总部 cover the middle region and the main office in Baghdad.
我们派了法官去北部 公诉人 We sent judges to service north, we sent prosecutors
以及调查人 业务助手以及行政人员 also to service north with investigators, paralegals
去了南部 别的办事处 and administrative staff and we did same thing
我们也派去了工作人员 with others offices.
这个过程非常有效 We find this is process working very well and
简化了我们的方法 让我们能够听 make our processes easy to listen to the victims,
受害者 目击者的控诉 witnesses and scene crimes, everything is ok.
不过同时我们又有了更大的项目 But in same time we have bigger project together.
我们不能坐等受害者上门 We can't work to listen to the victims and
不管大量的死亡人数和文件 leave the massive graves and the documents alone.
我们需要齐心协力一同处理 We have to work together.
我创立了伊拉克北部 南部 When I sent and I created the offices north of Iraq,
和中部的办事处 south of Iraq, middle of Iraq, in the same time
同时我又开始寻找相关文件 I start looking for documents and location of
和死难人数的所在地 the massive graves.
我们有两处文件的来源 We had, that time we had two sources for the documents,
一是机构本身 我们是伊拉克官方 one called itself, we are the gate mast of the Iraq
的司法机构 二则是 official Iraqad and the second one we have also
无国籍组织提供的很多文件 received many documents from the NGO
以及美国 and the United States.
很多人都很惊讶 居然还有美国? Some people is surprising, United States?
是的 就是美国 Yes United States.
他们保管了1991年以来的那些文件 They had possession of those documents since from 1991.
1991年后 伊拉克北部有点类似独立了 After 1991 the North of Iraq is kind of independent
他们保管了大部分文件 and they took most of this document and send it over
并把文件交送给了美国政府 to the United States here and they are working for
科拉罗多州的人员就在研究这些文件 this document in Colorado.
我们称之为科拉罗多文件 We call this Colorado documents.
那里有众多的历史文件 There is huge Iraqi histories there now.
直到2004年12月 我们收到了数亿吨计的文件 Until December 2004 we received tones of documents,
是的 吨数 而非文件数 excuse me, tones, not numbers.
我收到了超过10吨重的文件 I received more than ten tones of documents.
研究这些文件 必须有合适的方法 To work over all these documents I have to find process.
有数吨重的文件 没办法正常的工作 There is truck and there is no way to work
正常的检阅每份文章 with the regular things, to check each piece of paper.
不管怎样 法庭外的基地绵延数里 Anyway we create base out of court is several miles,
非常安全 我们称之为SUEUS证据 不 security place. We call it SUEUS evidence, No!
安全证据..SUE 安全证据保存库 Security Evidence, SUE Security Evidence Unit.
我们把基地守护的很好 We kept the place very safe and we have two steps
在那里进行两项工作 in this place.
首先 我们雇了100个人 First one, we hired 100 individuals working over
分类整理这些文件 all these documents.
分为四组 And we divided these individuals, four groups.
第一组负责将文件分类 Each one, twenty-five, first one just separated
法律的和普通的文件 the documents, legal and the regular,
把普通文件扔出去 留下法律文件 threw the regular out and choose the legal.
第二组把法律文件分为重要的 Second, separate the legal as important and
和常规的 just regular order.
可能就是行政命令之类的 Maybe is, you know, is administrative order like this
把这些文件分类开来 and separate it.
第三组把法律文件分为证据和一般 Third, separate this legal paper as evidence and normal.
把一般的文件排除掉 只用到证据 We push the normal out of our job and use the evidence.
第四组是最主要的 Fourth group and this, this is group is main group
职能极为重要 and very important.
我们根据系统分支进行了分组 We are divided according to our system divided, we are,
根据我们的系统 I'm sorry we are, according to our system
我们成立了14项检控案件 we are established fourteen cases.
第四组把我们的电子证据分类为14个案子的 Fourth group divided our electronic data to fourteen cases.
这张纸上 They are working for; this is paper and fine,
处理的是不公正对待的案件 this paper charge with unfair case.
他们快速看完这张纸 They are scanning this paper and put with the unfair
把它和不公正案件的文件放在一起 documents. Maybe this paper charged with jail,
监禁的文件放在一起 同样的还有 scanning and put to the jail. Same thing 1991 Barazaini
1991Barazaini案和其他案子 and other cases, that's mean we have fourteen case
我们有14宗案件 根据电子数据库 and according to our electronic database
我们有14个集装箱可以用 we have fourteen container can use it.
这是第一步 第二步是 This the first step, second step there is
有24名调查法官和60名调查员 twenty four investigative judges and sixty investigators
以及超过100名辅助人员 and more than hundred paralegal working.
他们没法在同一个地方工作 They can't work in the same place, No!
不过可以通过网络检索文件 they have electronic access over these documents.
他们检查每名法官 调查法官 They check each judge, each investigative judge
或是每支队伍 有时我们负责 or each team, sometime we have a team working
检索同一个案例和文件的 the same cases go through the electronic access
是同一支队伍 and check the documents.
什么文件可以用 Which document you can use in this case,
哪些重要的文件 哪个是常规的哪个不是 which important document, who's regular and who's not.
我们找到运用文件的最好方式 We find this way the best way we are used
这也是电子数据库显示的 and also that is this way electronic database proves.
他们节省了大量时间 They save time, save offer more than is the regular way.
到2006年12月我们差不多看完了 Until 2006 December we almost finish scanning most of
大部分文件 系统中存储了 our documents, we had in these systems more
超过600万份文件 than six millions documents.
同时我们也在调查受害者 In the same time we are working over the victims,
目击者和伊拉克附近的地形山丘 witnesses, offices round the front hills in Iraq,
文件 还有另一支队伍是调查 documents, there is another group working
大量的死者的 for the massive graves.
因为这些是我们控诉的有力证据 目击者 Cause these are our tools, witness, victims, documents
受害者 文件 以及死者的证据 and the evidence from the massive graves.
要调查前任证券 To conduct the systematic of the ex regime and
以及反人类的政策 我们必须找到 the policy against the people we have to find the relation
实际发生的行为和文件中记录的命令 between the acts on the grounds and the order
之间的联系 目击者讲述的经过 in documents and the stories of the witnesses
以及通过何种方法来成立案件 and what kind of the bridge to build our cases.
大量的死伤是最重要的部分 Massive graves is one of the most important step
调查死难者人数还有 we are using, also there is two sources
两处信息来源 for the massive graves.
一 目击者是很重要的 One, witnesses is really more important step.
目击者告诉了我们死伤发生的 The witnesses gave us the location of
地点和时间 the massive graves and the time.
有时也会告诉我们需要 Sometime also they gave us kind of a victims
法律帮助的受害者是谁 they assume need our court issues.
死伤发生的时间是如此重要 But the time of the massive graves is so important
因为如果他们说 死伤是发生在1990年之前 because if they said this massive grave is before 1990
就没什么调查的必要了 例如库尔德人 that's so clear for us. Kurdish victims
在库尔德采取的行动是1988年发生的 because the operation in 1988 against the Kurdish.
1990年之后的才是我们要调查的 They said after 1990 that's here, sometimes there are
有时还存在不同党派 因为政府在1980到2003 parties because they are start arrested the communist
之间开始逮捕共产党人以及起义人员 and the revolts' parties from 1980 until 2003.
不过那不是重点 重点是 But that's not main point, the main point is the shares
库尔德人 and the Kurdish.
第二个来源 是与之协调的人权组织 Second source, the human rights organization
他们与美国军方有联系 they are coordinating, they have coordination with
因为他们需要高科技 the US military because they are used more
各领域的科技 than and technical and most of this technology
来找到发生地 to find the places.
大多数死难者的尸体都被遗弃了 Most of the massive graves is isolated looking action
搜寻工作非常艰难 in the desert.
并不容易 有时没办法用卡车运送 Is not easy to go, sometime there is no way to use
不得不通过直升机来搜寻 any truck, you have to go by the helicopter
灾难的发生地 just to find this place.
12月 2004年12月 December, again December 2004, that's
那是最后的期限 the main deadline for us.
我们的数据库里有超过250次 Our database, we have information
大屠杀的相关信息 over 250 massive graves in Iraq, 250.
每次大屠杀都有超过 差不多 Each massive graves had more than, between ten,
10-15个死伤者埋葬地 每个地方 between 10-15 graves. Each grave had between 80-100
都有大约80-100个村庄人口数的死者 state of the human limit.
我们需要找到这些地方 We need to open these graves, we need to work over this,
怎么找? how we can do that?
这是第一个问题 第二个问题是 This is the first question, second question now
我们有数据 定位 所有信息 we have data, locations, all the information we need
但是怎么来提起控诉? but how we can work?
伊拉克卫生部部长 人权部部长 Minister of health, minister of human rights, archeology
考古部部长 他们不能单独完成这个工作 department in Iraq, that's clear, they can't do that alone.
我们还是新成立的部门 We are just a new government now, but the solution is our
解决方法在于我们的系统 根据法律 system. According to the rule of law, to the rule of
伊拉克的法律程序 我们可以寻求国际帮助 procedure in Iraq, we can ask for the international support.
但是除了美国 英国 我们没有什么 But there is no international support except
国际援助 于是我们跟他们进行了谈判 United States and the British and we ask them.
他们很乐意帮忙 提供了很好的项目 They'll be happy to help us, they offer great project,
但是由于戒严的情况以及死伤者所在地 but because the security situation and the location of
我们需要选择开放 the massive graves, we need to select
某些大屠杀的地址 some massive graves to open.
我们开放了五处 因为那些有更多的细节 We agree to open five because there is huge details.
为了开放每一处遗址 需要在那儿 To open each massive grave, each one, you need to build
的周围设置营地 就像小城市那样 camp around this area, look like small city.
我们需要给专家和人员休息的地方 We needs places for sleeping, for the experts and
需要能够洗漱的休息区 the peoples there, we need showers, some rest places,
餐饮室 两种冰箱 放食物的 dining room, refrigerators, for two kinds, one for food,
和放尸体的 因为我们把尸体移了出来 another one for people because we took the bodies
需要放在安全的地方 and we have to keep it in the safe place.
需要网络连接 卫星 电话 电 Internet access, satellite, cell phone, electricity,
发电机 安全保障 军队 城市 generators, security, army, city, we have to build city
需要在沙漠中建立城市 in the desert.
每个遗址都花费了至少500万美元 Each grave, each massive grave cost us minimum
差不多500万到1000万之间 5millions, each one between 5-10.
按最少的来算 我们花费了2500万美元 If we go with our minimum that's we are spend 25millions
最多5000万美元 dollars, maximum 50.
政府罪行联络处被称为RCLO Regime Crime Liaisons' Office is called RCLO, this office
这是美国政府设立的 is working created from the US government to help
帮助伊拉克高级法院工作的办公室 the Iraqi High Tribunal.
经费很有限 因为我们无法单独完成工作 Of most of this is budget because we can't do that alone
便寻求了国际援助 and we had international expert,
他们曾经在波斯尼亚工作过 they are working with Bosnia before,
从南斯拉夫来到伊拉克 和我们合作 Yugoslavia to came to Iraq and work with us again.
我们开放了哈达地区 在伊拉克北部的摩苏尔 We opened Hadar that is area north of Iraq in Mosul,
那里的受害者都是库尔德人 the victims there is Kurdish and we find different kind
我们找到了不同的遗址 埋有妇女儿童的 of graves, there is graves for the women and children
和埋有男性的 南部的穆萨纳 and graves for the just men. Muthana, south of Iraq,
受害者也是库尔德人 also the victims is Kurdish, that's give us good with
这让我们对当时政府镇压库尔德人的政策 the document we have also good view or good picture
镇压库尔德人的政策 which kind of systematic or policy the ex regime used
有了大概的了解 against the Kurdish.
他们在北部逮捕了大量民众 They arrested people in the north to camps
关押在摩苏尔 或者押往南部地区 in the Mosul or send them down south of Iraq,
只是换了个地方 just change the places.
我们同时开放了靠伊朗边境的米尚地区 Also opened Misan near the border between Iraq and Iran,
以及卡巴拉和Najav 这就是开放的五处遗址 Kabala and Najav, this is five massive graves were opened
我们从那儿运走了尸体进行检测 and we took the bodies to test.
需要把那些尸体从遗址处 We have to send these bodies from these massive graves
运往巴格达 用到了直升机 to Baghdad, use the helicopters operation
因为还有检测的设备和专家们 because the facility for the test and the expert,
不能让他们徒步穿过沙漠 we can't let them go to the desert because really
那太危险了 我们把他们安置在巴格达的 so danger and we keep them in Baghdad with a security
安全地带 提供了所需的所有工具 place, with all the tools they needed.
在沙漠里没法找全所有的工具 There is no way to with all the tools there in the desert.
那些都是非常精细的工具 There is kind of very specifics tools and
我想以后我们可能会 I hope this maybe in future we can publish
发布一些相关的照片 some pictures about this.
我在找时间 I'm looking now for time but I,
不过希望我能做完这些 hopefully I can cover all this.
我说了有10多吨重的文件 Funding, I said documents, ten tones, you know
还有大量的遗址 我们需要至少2000万美元 and massive graves we need at least minimum
最多5000万的资金 2,000, five, 50millions.
要完成项目 资金非常重要 Funding is very important step in our project to succeed
我们必须有足够的钱来完成这些 must we have enough money to work over all this.
伊拉克政府伪善地提供了300万美元 Iraqi government phariseers offers 3millions US dollars
才只是工资和安全费用的一半 that's mean half of this money go to the salaries
但我们的搭档美国非常富有 and the securities, but in same time we have good partners
政府罪行联络处的经费很充裕 and very rich, US. Regime Crime Liaison's Office
不过他们是由驻伊拉克的 have good budget but they are running this budget
美国大使馆在管理这项经费 by the US embassy in Iraq.
同时他们提供了大量的资金 But they in the same time offer great money to build
建立了安全证据处以及所有的电子系统 the Security Evidence Unit and all the electronic system
在伊拉克政府的法庭内 there. And with the Iraqi government's court house,
我们用的法庭大楼 court house, we are use court house, the building itself
这栋楼之前被用作领导人的办公室 is used before as offices for the leaders,
那是巴特政权的最高领导人 the highest leaders of the Barth regime.
前任政权建立了这些来供萨达姆 The ex regimes build this to use for the Saddam Hussein
以及巴特的领导们使用 and the assistant as elder of Barth.
我们发现了这栋坚固的建筑物 We find this the strong building in Iraq, the strongest
是巴格达可用的最坚固的建筑 非常高 in Baghdad we can used, it's a huge building.
甚至即使有人用各种方法来攻击 Even if you are is attack this building by multiples,
破坏什么的 这楼像坚固的蛋似的坚不可摧 wracks, whatever, look like eggs (chq chq chq).
楼墙厚2米 每两层墙之间 The wall is around 2meters and the middle is most of
还连着铁皮层 the steel between two walls.
因此我们用这些资金 Yeah and also we finish all this whole project
完成了整个项目 by this money.
这是4项技术困难中 This is the first 4 points in technical problem,
不过还有两个困难 并不是技术上的 but there is another two, that is not technical as a human.
一是被告都是翻手为云覆手雨的人 One, the defendant manipulative characters, the second,
二是政治压力 the politician pressure.
第一点非常重要 我们试图 First one is very important, we are trying to establish
在伊拉克建立起新的法治 new rule of law in Iraq.
如果用前任政权用过的相同的方法 If we are use the same way we are used, the ex regime
毫无疑问会失败 used before and we have fake trial, that's mean
等于什么都没做过 we didn't do anything.
那不是我们想要的 That's no, nothing for our offer.
我们很希望能够进行下去 It's good for us to continue our project
但必须为伊拉克人民带来新的未来 but we have to give a new picture for the Iraqi people,
那就是法治存在的意义 what rule of law is mean.
我们花了很多钱 很多心力 We spend a lot of money, a lot of blood in this project,
一些工作人员被无情的杀害了 some of the individuals because they are running for us,
如何让人们理解新生的伊拉克? getting killed. How to let them understand this new Iraq?
给他们带来新的指引 A new message for the Iraqi people,
如何来尊重生而为人的权利 how can I respect the human rights,
如何尊重被告的权利? how can I respect the defendant's rights?
调查室非常尊重被告人的权利 The investigative chamber respect the defendant's rights
并尊重辩护律师的权利 and they respect all the attorneys' rights,
但同时我们也学到了另外的经验 but in the same time we are learning from another
我们从卢旺达 experience. We are learning from Ruanda,
塞拉利昂 南斯拉夫都学到了很多 from Sierra Leone, from Yugoslavia, don't let,
不要让犯下罪行的人有机可乘 don't give tool to the accused to use the court against us.
不要让他们有反击的时间 Don't let the accused play by time,
我们必须理解被告的心理状态 we have to understand the characters of the accused.
如何用最好的方法来将他们绳之以法 Which is the perfect way we can use with them?
萨达姆和他的助手并不是 Saddam and his assistant were not easy characters to
简单的角色 deal with, frankly.
以前就有领导人 There are leaders a long time ago, they are using
利用职权为己谋利 the world all the time.
不过最好的方法是让他们 But the best way we are used to let them think
察觉不到我们的目的 放松下来 they are comfortable and talk.
这是和他们相处的唯一方法 This is the only way they work with them.
当他们放松戒备 开始滔滔不绝的时候 When they fell they are comfortable and
我们可以穿插一些问题 starting talking, we can throw some question in the
来引出他们的答案 middle and they continue on the answer.
这是我们获得信息的策略 This is our strategy to get the information.
如果谁讲了很多 就一定会犯错 If anyone talk a lot, he will make a lot of mistake.
那是我们需要掌握的错误 来展示给人们 The mistake we need it, we use it to show the people
这就是前任政权对人民犯下的罪行 this is the ex regime policy against the Iraqi people.
我们在庭上取得了成功 And we succeeded in this inside the court.
还有其他更严重的问题 Also there is another problem, the huger problem.
法治和政治统治的关系 Rule of law and the politician agenda.
这是时时刻刻相搏的两个因素 This is the fighting global time.
我们的责任就是传达这个讯息 Our responsibility must be sent this message,
没有人能凌驾于法律之上 no one above the law, must be respectoral of law.
政治有时会利用法律来为他们服务 The politician sometime uses this court for them agenda.
我不能说很多 因为我知道这里或许是 I can't talk a lot because I know this is place is maybe
用作讲座的 但是我想最后再说 used as a lectures' class, but I want to say the final things
如果在伊拉克开始做这样的事情 here. If you start the project like this in Iraq,
会受到很大的压力 代价很大 you will get a lot of pressure, you will spend a lot of blood,
会花费很多财力和人力 you will spend a lot of money, a lot of offer,
但是相信法治就必须继续下去 but if you believe rule of law you have to continue
排除万难 继续你要做的事 and push all this out and continue on your mission.
没有这个 就一定会出局 Without this, without this job, 100% you will be out
没人能帮你 没有创造新的法律机制 and no one can help you and there is no way also
改善国家的其他方法 to create a new rule of law and improve your country.
我们并不是为自己 而是为了 We did this not for us, No! We did this project and
让人民理解伊拉克的法治 let the peoples understand what's mean the rule of law
以及为什么要尊重人权 its mean in Iraq and why we are respect all the human
尊重全人类 尊重被告的权利 rights, all the human, all the defense rights
是因为这对伊拉克的未来和 because we think that's important for Iraqi future
我们的下一代至关重要 and for our children.
我们并不想重蹈覆辙 不经审判 We don't like to beg to the past and kill the king
就杀害了国王和他们一家 and his family without any trial.
必须要继续让人民理解 We have to continue to let the people understand
法治对任何国家都是尤为重要的 the rule of law is important to build any country.
我想最后法庭成功的 And I think finally the court has succeed to send
向伊拉克领导人传递了三项讯息 three messages to the Iraqi leaders,
没人都蔑视法律 位居高位 there is no one above the law and if you have any
就必须服务你的臣民 人民 position you have to service your citizen, your people,
而不是让他们为你做牛做马 not use your people to service for you.
第二 让法官 裁判人和法学专家们知道 Second, strong messages to the judges and prosecutors
肩负的守护国家的重任 and the legal experts your responsibility to handling
并督促他们一直向前走 your country in your shoulders and move forward
改善国家的情形和法治系统 to improve the situation and system.
第三 告诉政治家们 如果要建立真正的国家 Third, the politician, if you are looking to the real country
就尊重它 尊重宪法 and respect this country, respect the constitution
尊重法律的力量 must be stay away from the rule of law.
非常感谢 我想我讲完了 Thank you so much and I hope I can cover small things
所有的细节 for this issue.
不知道还有问问题的时间没 I don't know if we have any time for questions
不过如果你们有任何问题 but if we have any questions
有人可能要走 不过还有些时间 Some of you may need to leave but I know we do
所以大家可以问一些问题 have some time, so we can take a few questions
我非常欢迎 if there are some and we'd like to invite them.
让我介绍Majet先生 他可能能帮助我 Let me introduce Mr. Majet, maybe he can help me
更好的理解你们的问题 with something to understand the questions clearly.
我很乐意回答 If there's any question I'll be happy to answer it.
问题:你认为对伊拉克政府而言 Question: Do you think wasn't it necessary for
赦免前任政府高官 the Iraqi government to grant amnesty to
来作为防止腐败的一部分 the past regime hierarchy officers
是否必要? as part of omnipotence to anti-corruption?
回答:如果要谈论到 Answer: Ok! If we talk about the amnesties
对领导人的赦免 for the leaders
这是受国际刑事法管控的部分 we are under the international crimes.
在国际刑事法中不存在赦免 There is no amnesty in the international crimes,
那是一项很久以前的事了 that's one and that is a long time ago.
我们如何利用这项法律 How we are use the law over this because
因为的确有赦免的情况 there is amnesty also.
伊拉克签署了种族灭绝和战争罪的公约 Iraqi signed the genocide committee and war crimes
种族公约是1959年 战争则是1956年 committees. Genocide is 1959 and war crimes 1956.
种族灭绝公约和战争罪公约 That's mean on the all the genocide committee
是当地刑法的一部分 and the war crime committee is part of the local penal law.
任何犯有国际罪行的人 Anyone committing international crime there is no way
都不可能得到赦免 to give him any amnesty.
这就是我要说的 Yeah! This is the way.
我们的经验是 必须尊重工作人员 Our experience we have to respect our people
和他们的辛勤劳动 并保护他们 and work and serve them and protect them. Yeah!
问题:首先我想 Question: First I just wanna
把手举一下 别犹豫 Raise your hand, don't hesitate
首先我想说 很荣幸见到你 First I just wanna say that it's really an honor
听你讲了这么多 非常感谢 to have you and to hear from you Thank you!
作为法学院的一分子 And to be part of law school for me here and
我非常支持你的勇气 I'd really want to support you for your courage
我只想问 除了技术的角度 and I just wanna ask you, besides the technical dimensions
和那些挑战 就你个人而言 and the challenges that personal
是如何面对那些恐惧的? how did you deal with those fears?
你的家庭和朋友是如何熬过来的? How did your family, your friends deal with them?
回答:非常感谢这个问题 首先 Answer: Thank you for this question, but the beginning,
感谢你说的这些话 以及这个问题 thank you so much for the kind speech and thank you
我肩负着两项责任 for the question, but there is two responsibility.
一个很小 一个很大 One very small and one very big. Very small,
很小的 是你和你的家庭 you and your family.
很大的 则是你的国家 历史和未来 Very big, your country, your history and your future
以及孩子们的未来 and your children, you know.
父亲为你感到骄傲 Your father is very proud when you are graduate
你了解这些 因为他觉得 from this, you know because he think
他为你做了很多 he did something for you.
那就是我们推动国家前进 That's what our responsibility to carry our country
所肩负的责任 and move forward.
我们从最古老的法制历史走来 We are came from the oldest legal history,
但有时政府也会运行不当 but we had problem with our government sometime.
如何要寻求挑战或是困难 If I'm looking for the challenges or the problems,
个人而言 那意味着我无法胜任自己的工作 personal, that's mean I can't do my job.
要完成工作 必须把所有的个人和 To do my job correctly I have to put all my personal
家庭问题置之度外 and my family problems for the main point,
我必须给伊拉克带来更好的未来 the point is must be succeed to give Iraq good future.
这样人们才会理解法治是什么 Then the people understand what the rule of law is mean.
那就是我们的责任 当然 That is our responsibility, but there is a problem
个人问题是无法避免的 但我们必须前进 all the time, many personal problem, but we have to move,
不能逃避自己的工作 no way to stay. No way to say this is not my job, No!
要坚持下去 就像服役的士兵 Continue! Same thing to soldier in the army,
他们也有家庭 但是祖国的荣耀 they had families but the honor of the country
更为重要 is more important. Please! Yeah!
问题:1991年之后伊拉克南部的 Question: In south of Iraq after 1991
联邦革命军 the federal revolution, was the majority of
是主要的镇压受害者吗? the victims Shiya?......
回答:并不是主要的 他们都是shiya人 Answer : Not majority, all of them Shiya because you know,
有14名官员 3名库尔德人 11名shiya人 fourteen governors, three north Kurdish and eleven Shiya
1991年后的库尔德人自我独立了 you know. Kurdish is after 1991 is kind of independent,
我们称之为安全区域 另一个就是shiya地区 we call secure area but the other is always Shiya.
其他4名来自Sarahadeen Amber 摩苏尔 Other four governors is Sarahadeen, Amber, Musol
和阿拉 那儿没发生什么 在巴格达南部 and Alar, nothing happened there, south of Baghdad
和伊拉克北部 还有其他问题吗? and North of Iraq. Thank you! Any other question?
问题:可能 Question: Maybe it's something that you
你已经提到过了 have already mentioned
不过进行调查的法律依据 during your talk but would legal bases
是法律高于 conducting investigations were using the law prior to
萨达姆政权之上 the Saddam's regime
有什么新程序吗? what was the new procedure put in place for this?
回答:那是我开头说的 Answer: I want to say that's my beginning but
不过时间有限 the time is really limited.
我们所用的一直是相同的法律 We are use the same laws before under Saddam's regime
是伊拉克刑法 编号111 1969年制定 until now, we are using the Iraqi penal law number
以及编号23 1971年制定的刑事程序法 111 1969 and criminal procedure law number 23rd 1971
很抱歉 除了建立 you know, just, I'm sorry, except where established
伊拉克高级法庭 the Iraqi High Tribunal statue as something you know,
并没有其他特殊的事情发生 specific for this approach, but in same time you find
不过同时很多文章都是有关 many article is back to the criminal procedure law
刑法和刑事程序法的 and penal law, the same time, yeah.
非常感谢大家 Ok, thank you so much for this time.