本栏目由艾莫利大学推出 This program is brought to you by Emory University
汤姆森:感谢大家的到来 Thomson: Thanks for coming
感谢汤姆的组织和安排 Thank you Tom very much for arranging this
感谢校长处的赞助 Thank you to provost office for sponsoring this
还要感谢我的同事本·赖斯 And thank you to my colleague Ben Reiss
愿意参加这次讲座 for agreeing to come along
活动比原定的时间晚了一些 抱歉 And sorry that we have to start a little late
我前面有几篇论文 I have papers in front of me
其中一篇就是如何利用科技 And one of them is how to make the technology work
这就是我们今天要谈论的问题 So there is the issue of what to say
就是如何利用科技 And how to make the technology work
我认为这对于视觉文化 But that is supposed to blessing and curse of working
既是福也是祸 in visual culture I guess
今天下午我们要讲到一些科技 So we do have some technology this afternoon
首先我想谈谈 But I'd like to begin by talking a little bit about the book
我刚出版的书 that I have recently published
名为《凝视:我们如何看》 That is called Staring: How We Look
之后会有相关的对话 And then have a conversation between
我们能……接着说 We can…here we go
本和我会展开对话 Between Ben and me about perhaps
不仅会涉及这本关于凝视的书 both the book project on staring
也会谈到我的工作的整体情况 But also about the larger trajectory of my own work
以及它如何能代表这一领域的发展 And how it is representative of the development of the field
在这一领域 本和我 that Ben and I as well as many other faculty
还有许多艾莫利的师生共同合作 and graduate students here at Emory work together in
残疾研究涉及了多门学科 And that is the interdisciplinary field of disability studies
有时被称为批判残疾研究 which sometimes gets called critical disability studies
有时也被称为新残疾研究 And sometimes it gets called the new disability studies
但是在接下来的谈话中 But we will just call it
我们只会称之为残疾研究 disability studies here as we talk
我会简要地介绍一下这本书的导论 I am going to go quickly through the premises
还有一些词汇 and a kind of gloss of the book
并借助一些图像来解释 using visual images to illustrate it
因为这本书是关于视觉文化的 Because it is a book about visual culture
所以我想借此让大家大概地了解一下这本书 So I want to give you a prissy of the book in this way
这本书得到了公共奖学金项目的支持 The book is a piece of public scholarship
它的对象读者包括普通大众 It is intended for a broader audience
还有学术界的同仁们 as well as an audience of my academic peers
因为我想让残疾人也参与到公共世界的生活中 Because I want to bring disability out and about in the public world
我们等会儿会再谈到这一点 And we will talk more about that concept a little bit later
这本书本身就是要吸引大家的眼球 The book basically constitutes an invitation to stare
思考凝视的意义 And to think about what staring means
以及凝视对于整个世界的影响 and what staring makes in the world
人们凝视的图像和事物 And so images and things to stare at
以及人们对视的图像 and images of people staring at one another
对这本书中起了重要作用 is crucial to the work of the book
这就是为什么我想给大家看一些图片 So that's one reason I want us to have some images here
我会展开来讲 So let me talk a little bit about this
我以为投影仪在前面 I was imaging looking at it in here
但是结果是在后面 But I will look at it here
所以请大家原谅我背对你们 So pardon my back
首先我想简要介绍一下凝视的定义 I want to begin with a very brief definition of staring
这是出自一个被凝视者的母亲口中 that comes from the mother of a staree
我自己创造了 被凝视者 这个词 Staree is one of the words that I needed to invent
这样才能讨论凝视的关系 in order to talk about the staring relationship
凝视最单纯最简单的本质就是 Staring, in its pure and simple essence
大脑需要一些时间来理解意外的情况 is the time required by the brain to make sense of the unexpected
这里的重要词汇就是大脑 The important words here are brain in the sense
因为凝视是我们都有的生理冲动 that staring is a physiological impulse that we all have
是我们对于新奇刺激物的 That is a neurological response
神经反应 to what is sometimes called novel stimuli
也就是我们对于 That is to say the experience
新的 新奇的 有趣事物的体验 of the new and the novel and the interesting
我们也会凝视令我们感到意外的事物 Unexpected of course is what we stare at
也就是我们不常看到或不了解的事物 That which we are not accustomed to seeing or knowing
我们希望能够对其了解得更多 that which we wish to see more knowledge about
凝视是什么呢？ So what is staring?
我已经给大家做了简要的介绍 I have given you a little bit of introduction to that
接下来我展示几张图片 I want to show a couple of images
让大家体验凝视的紧迫感和强度 that will give us a sense of the urgency and the intensity of staring
能看得见东西的人们都会凝视 which is something that all of us who have a vision do
并且乐在其中 and we do this with great relish
这就是我在书中探索的问题 And this is what I wish to explore in the book
我们为什么凝视？ Why do we stare?
我们凝视是因为我们想要了解得更多 We stare because we want to know more
我们凝视是因为我们感兴趣 We stare because we are interested
我们凝视是因为我们在不相关的事物中 We stare because we are seeking coherence
寻找相关性 in something that appears to be incoherent
我们在任意的陈述中 We are looking for a narrative
或者日常生活的任意事件中 in what seems like a random representation
寻找完整的叙述 or a random occurrence in our daily lives
谁凝视？ Who stares?
每个人都凝视 Everyone stares
所有看得见的人都凝视 Everyone who has vision stares
这很重要 And this is very important
因为我们的文化认为凝视 because of course staring is imagined in our cultural moment
是不礼貌的 as a breached etiquette
我们不应该这么做 Something that we ought not to do
大家都知道的关于凝视的一点就是 The one thing that everyone knows about staring is
你的母亲曾经告诉你不要盯着别人看 that your mother says you are not supposed to do it
凝视这一举动对我来说 So for me this makes the sight of staring
有双重含义 and I intend that as having double meaning
凝视这一举动充斥着焦虑 Scenes of staring particularly anxiety fraught and also
尤其具有其社会意义 particularly productive in their intensity for making social meaning
我们凝视什么东西？ So what do we stare at?
我觉得这是本书中 This is perhaps the most interesting I think question
最有意思的问题了 that the book puts forward
我们凝视不寻常的东西 We stare at things that are unusual
吸引我们的东西 things that are fascinating to us
还有我们感到好奇的东西 things we are curious about
我们不仅对事物感到好奇 We are curious about things
也对为什么凝视事物感到好奇 and we are curious about why we stare at things
比如有胡子的女人 Have beard woman for example
这里面就有一种矛盾 might be the kind of narrative contradiction
导致我们盯着它看 that would encourage us to stare
我们想要从看似不相关的事物中 in order to form a narrative or to make a coherence
寻找相关性 as I mentioned out of something that appears to be incoherent
非常有趣 我很喜欢这些图像 It's interesting I like these images
因为这个图像 because this is an image just opposed of someone
这个有胡子的女人非常特别 who perhaps is very extraordinary the beard women
她的头像可能就是一个非常普通的人 and someone who is very ordinary
普通人出于各种不同的原因 The ordinary person has made himself extraordinary
想要变得特别 想受到人们的关注 in order to be a staree for a variety of different purposes
我们凝视什么？ What do we stare at?
我之前已经说到 I have premised the concept of staring as a relationship
凝视象征着凝视者与被凝视者之间的关系 between starers and starees
我们通过许多方式凝视不同的事物 We stare at in many ways at different scenes
我们最常凝视的就是残疾人 I have highlighted staring at what we think of as disability
这是我要强调的一点 as what I call the primal scene of staring
也就是说 That is to say
我们不该看的地方 The place that we are not supposed to put our eyes
不该凝视的事物 The things we are not supposed to stare at
有很多东西都是我们不该盯着看的 There are many things we are not supposed to stare at
但是我们对于残疾人的看法 But what we think of disability
就是一个明显的例子 is one of the primary examples of that
因此我借这本书 So I have used the book as an opportunity
探讨我们今天将讨论的主题 to bring forward the topic of our conversation today
那就是残疾人在生活中常被人盯着看 And that is disabled people out in the world as starees
我称他们为经历丰富的被凝视者 And they are out in the world that's what I call experienced starees
所以这本书就是围绕 So the book is organized around
被凝视者和凝视的事物展开 starees and scenes of staring
结合称之为的经历丰富的被凝视者 that are orchestrated largely by what I call experienced starees
我想通过一些被凝视者的力量 And I want to bring forward the agency of these starees
来改变我们的这种观念 to upset our notion that a person who is stared at
即凝视的对象 is the object of exploitation
是剥削和压迫的受害者 or the victim of some sort of oppressive interaction
我想要强调被凝视者在交流中的作用 I want to emphasize the agency in the interaction of the staree
这张图中的人是一位律师 他常被人凝视 So this is a picture of a barrister who is a staree
他制作了一幅自画像 who had a portrait of himself made
这张照片中是一些可能会被凝视的人 And this is also a photograph of some starible people
他们参与到公共生活中 who are out and about in the world
主动作为人们可能凝视的对象 presenting themselves as starees to potential starers
我还想谈几位书中描写的被凝视者 I'd like to mention a couple of starees that are featured in the book
这个年轻人是一位摄影师 This is a young man who is a photographer
他叫凯文·康诺利 His name is Kevin Connolly
他没有腿 He is a legless person
他发起了一个摄影活动 and he has a photographic project
并且对所谓的残疾艺术 and very interested in what might be called disability art
以及如何让艺术和残疾重合非常感兴趣 and how art and disability coincide in the world
这两个词常常会被放在一起 They are two terms that are often put together
我很感兴趣的一点 And one of the things that I am interested in
就是残疾人创作的艺术 is the production of art by people with disabilities
以及残疾如何影响 and how disability influences
残疾人创作文化作品 the cultural products of people with disabilities
凯文·康诺利环游世界的同时 Kevin Connolly has gone around the world
拍下了人们盯着他看的照片 taking photographs of people staring at him
他没有腿 因此他活动的方式非常特别 As a legless person he has very unusual form of mobility
他依靠自己组装的滑板四处走动 He gets around on a kind of skate board that he's put together
所以他观察别人的视角 And of course the perspective that he has of his starees
非常有趣 is very interesting
因为他总是要抬头看别人 When he is perpetually looking up at the scenes of his starees
我在书中介绍了另一个人 Another staree that I featured in the book
他叫大卫·罗奇 is a man named David Roche
他是一个脱口秀喜剧演员 有着一张特别的脸 who is a stand-up comedian with a very unusual face
他依赖自己的可凝视性为生 and he spends time using his staribility to basically make a living
他说不管在舞台上还是舞台下 he says people stare at me
人们都盯着我看 on stage and off
所以我可以演好节目 So I might as well run the show
这张图是大卫·罗奇和他的凝视者在一起 So here is a picture of David Roche with some of his starers
真的很棒 It's really wonderful
这本书中还有很多凝视者的图片 There are a lot of photographs in the book of starers
这是与被凝视者相对的角色 as opposed to starees as well in the scenes of staring
这本书基本上分为四个部分 The book is divided into basically four sections
再加上定义这一节 in addition to the definition portion of the book
这四个部分分别与身体部位相对应 And the four sections are corresponding to body parts
这四个部位在我们的文化中具有象征意义 that are particularly iconic in our culture
也就是说我们对于这些部位的关注 That is to say there are parts of the body
是有文化意义的 that carry cultural meaning when we focus on them
第一章叫做对脸的凝视 So there's a section called staring at faces
我观察了各种不同的凝视场景 in which I look at a variety of different scenes of staring
有一系列图像展示的是一些特殊的脸孔 One is a series of portraits painted of people with unusual faces
它把我们认为的病态 that take what we imagine as pathological conditions
转变成一种美 and turn them into other kinds of narratives
我非常喜欢这张照片 I like this photograph very much
因为这个面部畸形的女人 Because it is a person we imagine with a facial disfigurement
化身成为超级性感的辣妹 who is posed as a highly sexy vamp
有一种《蒂凡尼的早餐》中 a kind of Audrey Hepburn
奥黛丽·赫本的感觉 of Breakfast at Tiffany's
在书中还有一个系列的图像 There is a series of paintings
是关于火灾幸存者的 that I spend some time talking about in the book of burn survivors
他们经过救治后 again this is a condition that is highly medicalized
人们通常认为他们不具有艺术美 not one that we imagine finding as a subject of art
更不用说在展览会或博物馆展出他们的肖像 Let alone in an exhibit or in a museum
在脸这一章 In the face's section I spend some time in the book as well
我还分析了 analyzing scenes of staring
对连体人的凝视 that are staged by people who are conjoined
连体指的是身体连结的特殊生理现象 Conjoinment is a very unusual configuration of embodiment
我们都对此有所了解但是却很少见 One that we are all aware of but one that we seldom witness
于是这就成了我们争相凝视的对象 And of course it becomes a very intense scene of staring
这对连体姐妹的脸是连结在一起的 And these are two conjoined sisters' conjoined faces
她们拍摄了一部纪录片 who are the subject of a documentary
名为《脸对脸》 called Face to Face of course
内容是关于她们被人盯着看的经历 which is about their staring experiences
凝视手 Staring at hands
手是人类赖以生存的重要部位 Hands are imagined as what make us human
手是我们实现意愿的重要工具 Hands are imagined as the implement of our will in the world
这张图片非常有趣 And this is a very interesting photograph
有一个系列的图片 There was a series of spectacles
关于政治行动 a series of political activism events around
就是将塞拉利昂的被截肢者带到美国 bringing amputees from Sierra Leone to the United States
展示他们的截肢 to display their amputation of the hands
以此作为他们的政治宣言 in order to make a political statement
反对在塞拉利昂继续战争 about the antiwar initiatives in Sierra Leone
这个女人是一位残疾研究学者和活动家 This is a woman who is a disability study's scholar and activist
她天生没有双臂 who was born armless
她在服务行动中 who uses the scenes of staring
总是会遭遇人们的凝视 that she perpetually produces in the world
她利用这一点 in the service of activism
对此我很感兴趣 which I am interested in
我在书中称其为视觉行动主义 what I all visual activism in the book
凝视胸部 Staring at breasts
诚然胸部是一种文化象征 Of course breasts are cultural icons
我很关注乳腺癌活动 and I was interested in the breast cancer movement
其展示了接受乳房切除术的患者 and they display the scenes of staring
没有乳房这一特殊的值得关注的现象 around the unusual breastlessness of mastectomy survivors
这个特殊现象 我称其为切除乳房 So there is a whole history of display of these unusual
有着漫长的历史 or what I call amputated breasts
这是摄影师乔 史宾斯 The photographer Jo Spence
还有非常出名的 and of course the most well known image
一期《纽约时报》杂志 on the New York Times magazine
这是时装模特马图施卡 of the fashion model Matuschka
她说你再也不能移开你的视线 who says you can't look away anymore
让人们凝视她残缺的胸部 An invitation to stare at breastlessness
凝视身体 Staring at bodies
我想说的是大小这个概念 I want to bring forward the concept of scale
以及身体的大小如何吸引人们的眼光 and how scale itself creates scenes of staring
大小是一个相对的概念 and scale of course is relationally created
我们都对微型事物感到着迷 So we have the fascination with a miniature
这张《拇指汤姆的婚礼》 This is of course the Tom Thumb Wedding
拍摄于1865年 which took place in 1865
是当时媒体关注的一项盛事 One of the great media events
也许是19世纪媒体最为关注的盛事了 perhaps the greatest media scene of staring of the 19th century
也就是这两个小人结为夫妻 in which these miniature people were married
这张照片也非常有名 This is of course a famous photograph
名为《家中的犹太巨人与父母》 of the Jewish Giant at Home with his Parents
这个巨人叫做埃迪 卡梅尔 This is Eddie Carmel
照片由戴安·阿勃丝拍摄 photographed by Diane Arbus
这里我们又看到 Again scale is important here
大小使他成为人们凝视的对象 in creating the scene of staring
与房间和不知所措的父母相比 He becomes a giant in reference to the scale of the room
他显然就是个巨人 and his rather perplexed parents
以上就是我对这本书的介绍 That's what I want to say about the book
接下来本和我将展开对话 And Ben and I are going to have a conversation
我还有几张幻灯片希望能放给大家看 And we have a few other slides that I can hope to post up for you
我们可能也会谈到 That we may want to talk about
赖斯:好 Reiss: Great
首先我要感谢汤姆和他办公室的同事 Well, first of all I want to again thank Tom and his office
组织了这次讲座 for putting this together
我很高兴 and say that it's a wonderful
能与罗斯玛丽一起在这台上 be sharing the podium with the Rosemarie
在知识方面 她对我来说是个很重要的人 who has been kind of important figure for me intellectually
在我来到艾莫利大学之前就是如此 since long before I came Emory
我几乎是在同一场合结识了她和她的作品 and I encountered her and her work almost at the same instant
当时我在一场会议开始前读了盖里带的书 when I was reading copy, Gehry's copy of her first book
那是她的第一本书《神奇的身体》 Extraordinary Bodies at a conference just before it came out
几分钟之后 and only a few minutes later
作者自己就跑了进来 我很激动 ran into the author herself and I was so excited
因为她为我开启了一种观察事物的新方式 Because she kind of opened up a way of looking at things for me
而我正需要这种方式 that I really needed to help translate
来将我的研究转移到一个重要的框架中 what I was doing into a really significant frame
从那之后我们就经常联系 So we have been in touch since then
在过去的三年中我们变成亲密的同事 and now in the last 3 years we have become close colleagues
很高兴能和你一起参加这次讲座 So it's wonderful to be here with you
首先我想问的问题 And I want to start my question by asking about
是关于我看到的一种转变 what I see as a kind of transition between that first book
你的第一本书 Extraordinary Bodies
《神奇的身体:美国文化 Figuring Physical Disability
和文学中的身体残疾》 in American Culture and Literature
可以说是残疾研究方面的一本里程碑式的书 which really was you know a landmark book in disability studies
它定义了 kind of helping to define the terms
将残疾置于文化中思考的概念 of thinking about disability in culture
而不是简单地将其归于医学的领域 rather than simply a medicine
人们通常都认为残疾是属于医学的范畴 which resided almost exclusively prior to that
在这两本书中 And I think there is a really interesting shift
我看到了一种有趣的变化 going on between these two projects
在《神奇的身体》里 In Extraordinary Bodies
你说残疾其实是人们构建起来的 you talked about disability as being constructed
你还回顾了一系列 and you also go through a series of very fascinating reading
有趣的文本和文化现象比如畸形秀 of literary texts and cultural phenomenon like freak shows
这些都体现了残疾的构建本质 that showed the constructive nature of disability
你将其类比为种族划分 and you also make the parallel to ethnicity
我从书中引用一段念给大家听 and I quote from the book that I want to offer to you
这是引言中的一段 saying the introduction
我想要将残疾从医学的领域 I want to move disability from the realm of medicine
转移到政治少数党的范畴 into that of political minorities
将其从一种病理学形式变为种族划分的形式 to recast it from a form of pathology to a form of ethnicity
在《凝视》一书中 我觉得很吸引人的一点 And one of things that is so fascinating about the book Staring
就是你又超越了之前的成就 was I think it moves yet again beyond that
我觉得很难将你建立起的这些关系 It would be very hard to analogize these relationships
类比为 that you are setting up
一种统治和服从两个种族的关系 to relations between dominant and subordinated ethnicities
以及《神奇的身体》中描写的那样 and the way that Extraordinary Bodies often did
有一种不稳定的因素存在于 There are something much more unstable about the relationships
正常人 和残疾人的关系中 between the normate
正常人 这个词也是你发明的 another word you I think have coined and disability
你能不能解释一下 I wonder if you could talk a little bit about you know
为什么破坏这个关于两个种族的类比 why it's so important to kind of destabilize that analogy
是如此重要 once you have made of ethnicity
汤姆森:残疾在文化中 Thompson: Well, disability functions
起到了许多不同的作用 in lots of different ways in the culture
它代表了一个具有某种身份的团体 It functions as an identity group
也就是说 That is to say
在文化中的任何时刻任何地点 there is constituted at every moment and space in culture
都有许多不同的团体正在形成 a variety of different groups
而残疾人是在 and that disabled is a group
某个特定的时刻形成的团体 that has been constituted at this particular moment
他们是通过一系列政治法案和立法 through a series of political acts and legislative acts
例如美国残疾人法案 such as Americans with Disabilities Act
还有医疗讨论等以多种方式形成的 through medical discourse in many different ways
这个团体 And the borders of that community
或者身份分配系统的边界 or that system of identity assignment as it were
非常不固定 is a particularly fluid border
也许比我们设想的边界还要易变 perhaps more fluid than the borders we imagine
例如性别和种族 as delineating system such as gender or ethnicity
将其类比为一个族群有利于 So well the comparison to ethnicity is useful
建立一种意识 in creating the sense of what is imagined
即少数群体 as a minority form of embodiment or minority group
对比多数群体 versus a majority form of embodiment
或者少数和多数身份 or minority and majority identity
残疾以不同的方式起着作用 Disability functions in different ways
这就是为什么 and this is one reason
我认为身份比较研究如此有趣 that I think comparative identity studies can be so interesting
因为我们可以讨论 Because we can talk about
某些情况下性别是如何作用的 how gender works in some situations
种族是如何作用的 and how race works
以及它们如何相辅相成 and how they intersect and mutually constitute one another
性别在这个系统中是如何作用的 and how sexuality works in this system
它们之间有着怎样的类比关系 and what kind of analogies can be made among them
赖斯:换句话说 Reiss: Another way of talking about what I think is
你描述了一种关系 make more fluid and complicated in the relationships
让它更加易变和复杂的一种方法 that you are sketching out here is
就是考虑 to think about the relationship between
观察者和被观察者 凝视者和被凝视者的关系 the viewer and viewee or the starer and staree
这是你之前提到的 is as you talking about
在早期的作品 怪物秀等等之中 And in the early work and freak shows and so on
被凝视者 这也是你发明的词 The staree a word you again have invented
他是一个对象 was an object
在你提到的这些艺术家中 and here there is much more kind of intersubjective dynamic
有更多的主体间性动力 between some of these artists who you mentioned
凯文·康诺利是一个很好的例子 Kevin Connolly just as you said a fascinating case
还有时装模特马图施卡 and also the fashion model Matuschka
你被人凝视 where you would assume the position of being stared at
这一身份容易让你遭遇不利 is the one that makes you vulnerable and
就像是赤身裸体暴露于人们眼前 naked and exposed
但是他们通过一些方式证明 but they have developed ways of revealing
凝视这一举动本身也会让人们遭遇不利 that staring itself can make one vulnerable
如果你在盯着别人看 The last thing you want to have happened to you
你最不愿意发生的一件事就是 when you are staring at somebody
你盯着别人看的场景被人拍下来 is to take a photograph if you are doing that
于是你就成了别人观察的对象 And then you become sort of the object
在这里你违反了关于凝视的规矩 and there is a kind of prescription against staring
而且被抓了个正着 that you have violated and you are caught doing that
这就像是转变了身份 And so this is kind of turning the tables there
这真的非常有趣 That's really quite interesting
我很好奇是什么让你 I am curious about what led you to that move
观察这种主体间性动力 to looking at that kind of intersubjective dynamic
也就是说被凝视者 where the staree in essence sort of
其实也是在观察凝视者 turns the lens back on the starer
汤姆森:也许借助一些图片会更好 Thompson: Maybe we can get an image a pair that might be useful
大家在之前看的幻灯片中 You might have noticed in the few slides
可能注意到了 that I have showed you
本刚才也有提到 and Ben just mentioned as well
我们俩在分析畸形秀 that both of us have done much work
这一文化现象上 in analyzing the cultural spectacle
做了大量的工作 that is sometimes known as the freak show
它也被称为神奇秀或怪物秀 or the wonder show or the monster show
取决于历史时期 depending on the historical period
因为在这个典型的例子中 because it is a quintessential scene
我们可以看到人们构建的差异性 where otherness is constituted
本写了一本书 And Ben wrote a wonderful book
名为《表演者与奴隶》 called The Showman and the Slave
这本历史著作 which is about it's a really great historical piece historical study
是关于一个非常有名的历史人物乔伊斯·赫思 on Joice Heth who was a very well known
你可能要补充一下 and you may want to add to this
还有一个非常有名的 A very well known famous freak figure
19世纪畸形秀或者说怪物秀演员巴纳姆 or wondrous figure from the 19th century Barnum found
本和我研究了畸形秀 And much of the work that Ben and I have done on freak shows
它们运作的方式 它们如何构建差异性 and how they work and how they constitute otherness
以及它们如何构建规范的主观性 and how they constitute normative subjectivity let's say
其中有一个中间人 There was a mediator
在这里巴纳姆就是中间人 in this case Barnum was the mediator
当我开始研究畸形秀的文本时 and when I began working on freak shows as texts
我发现它们很有成效 I found them very productive
但是人们老是跟我说 but people kept saying to me
这些没有胳膊的畸形人 well you know what these armless wonders
这对神奇双胞胎安和陈 or what are these amazing twins like Ann and Chin
他们在想什么？ what did they think?
他们都做些什么？ What were they doing?
他们有觉得自己被剥削了吗？ Did they feel exploited?
因为畸形秀演员的报酬 Because of course freaks
是所有演员中最高的 were the most highly paid of all the performers
一些名人比如维多利亚女王 and there were actually celebrities I mean Queen Victoria
都会去拜访他们 visited these people
这种对于畸形秀概念的理解 It was a very different understanding of the concept
确实是与众不同 of what a freak might be
它在18和19世纪意味着古怪 which meant whimsical of course in the 18th and 19th century
与我们今天对它的理解不太一样 rather than what we imagine it to mean today
我得说对此我毫无头绪 And I have to say I don't have any idea
因为那时候有很多小册子 Because there were lots of pampthlets
这些小册子里有一些故事 But the pamphlets themselves were narratives
它们本身就是整个畸形秀 that were part of the entire discourse of wonder and amazement
怪异和神奇所在 that was part of the freak show
我就想 这些人在想些什么 So I got to thinking what do these people think
我找不到答案 and I don't have any really way of finding that out
他们的目的是什么 What their agency was
我们可以通过照片发现他们都做了什么 We have a way of finding out what they did
他们看起来是什么样的 what they looked like after photography
通过摄影 图像不断增加 这股力量十分强大 the proliferation of image is overwhelming
所以我开始想 看看能不能找出 and so I began to think well let me see if I can find out
这些畸形人的经历 我很不想这么称呼他们 what the experience of I don't want to call them freaks at this point
他们总是被人们盯着看 these people that are stared at would be
于是我创造了被凝视者这个概念 So I formulated the concept of starees
我干了一件文学评论家不会干的事 I actually of course literate critics don't this
我做了一项调查 问人们问题 I sent out a survey and I asked people questions
并收回他们的答案 and received a number of responses
我把这些答案放进了这本书中 which I try to roll into the book
主要关于经常被人们盯着看的人 of experienced starees
以及他们如何处理凝视关系 and how they manage the staring relationship
因为我猜测 because my hypothesis was that there was much management
在社会学中存在这么一种管理 that went on within sociology
有一个概念叫做污名管理 there was a concept called a stigma management
或者否认偏差 or deviance disavowal
这两种说法我都不喜欢 and I didn't like any one of those terms very much at all
我想要以另一种方式谈论 I want to talk in another way about the agency
被凝视者的行为 that people who are stared at have in the world
于是我想关注 And so I conceived of trying to focus on people
那些我可以直接对话的人 that I can actually talk to
或者不需要通过中间人比如费尼尔司·泰勒·巴纳姆 or people who talked themselves without the kind of
而直接谈论自己经历的人 mediators like P.T. Barnum about their experience
就像凯文·康诺利 他可以上网 and so people like Kevin Connolly who of course has a website
还有大卫·罗奇 他可以详细地描述 and David Roche who talks at great length about
他是如何协调人们的凝视 how he orchestrates scenes of staring
以及他如何理解凝视 希望的情况又是怎样 and what he intends them to make and be in the world
所以说有这样的途径接触他们是非常有益的 So having that access was really useful
这就是从畸形人到被凝视者的转移 So it was kind of move from the freak to the starees as it were
赖斯:在我的第一本书中 Reiss: Right, the connection with my first book
这本书刚出版不久 actually the more recent one
我想要通过某种方式重现 in which I try to recapture in some ways
那些被排除在公众空间之外的 the experience of those who were excluded in
那些人的经历 this interesting public space
目的在于观察公共空间和私人空间 to look at public but also private and you know
也就是所谓的异类空间 space of otherness in The Showman and Slave
我试图想象乔伊斯·赫思的视角 And I try to imagine the perspective of Joice Heth
即畸形人或者被凝视者的视角 the freak or the staree
汤姆森:通过她 Thompson: Who supposed to be
你能了解乔治·华盛顿的生日 you understand George Washington's birthday
赖斯:对 这就起到了某种连结的作用 Reiss: Yeah this was the hook
她是最长寿的女性 She was the oldest living woman
她很有智慧 She was remarkably you know wisdomed
她全身瘫痪 双目失明 还…… She was paralyzed blind and…
汤姆森:还是非裔美国人 Thompson: And African American
赖斯:还是非裔美国人 Reiss: And African American
巴纳姆带着她带着到处走 And you know Barnum took her on a tour with him
人们都来盯着她看然后转身离去 People would come and sort of stared at her and gave back her
但是也问了她一些问题 but then also asked her questions
关于国家诞生这一亲密时刻的问题 about this very intimate moment in the birth of the national
我想要描写她 you know I wanted to try to write about her
不是从她是别人盯着看的对象 not just from a perspective of you know
这个视角 somebody who is an object of other people's gaze
或者说以好奇的眼光打量她 or you know more be curiosity
而是试图重现 but I tried to sort of recover
她看待这些故事的视角 some of her possible perspective on the story
结果我把这本书 and it's telling that I had to
写成了小说 kind of write a fiction at the end of the book
最后一章是我猜测的自传 and the last chapter is a speculative biography
我也想强调一下你说的这一点 and I think I underscore what you are saying about
就是你重现了一些原有的视角 that you recover ability of some of the perspectives
但是联系到这个对话的主题 but making a link to the announced theme of this conversation
就是关于公共空间 about public space
我觉得 It seems to me you know that
残疾人的图像和故事 narratives of disability and images of disability lately
近来越来越多地出现在人们的视野中 are now more of to a street
所以我想问你一个关于凝视的问题 and so I guess I would put the question to you about staring
在这本书中你 is one of the things that you're chronically in this book
你提到了将残疾人的视角 is the emergence of a disability perspective
融入公共文化和一般文化之中 into the public culture into the common culture
汤姆森:我想说 Thompson: Well exactly I would say that
我不是历史学家 how we make a historical argument
我们怎么能进行历史方面的讨论呢 even though I am not a historian
我们当下生活的世界 and that is that the world we live in right now
我们当下生活的世界 at this time and at this moment
已经变了 is a world that has changed
这种变化始于三十年前 and it started changing about 30 years ago
它的变化在于谁参与了公共生活 and the way that it changed is in who is out and about in the public
哪些人是我们的公共市民 and who is then imagined as part of the public citizenry
哪些人构成了所谓的人类社会 or part of what I call the human community
其构成范围越来越广 And it has become a much broader constituency of people
30年前 and before 30 years ago
我是以一种 and I am gonna make a kind of
还原的视角来看 reductive narrative here for my purposes
我们看待残疾人的方式 The way we saw disabled people in the public world
与看待畸形秀的演员 were as performers in the freak show
慈善活动的救济对象 and objects of charity in charity campaigns
还有医院机构里的病人无异 or institutionalized medicalized patients
这是我们在公共世界中最常见的 These were mostly the three narratives of disability
三种残疾人 that were available in the public world
我还另外加了一种 乞丐 我也应该这么做 what I did include in here and I should is begging
因为乞丐总是在大街上 Because beggars have been always out on the streets
他们存在于公共世界中 always in the public world
所以他们也是残疾人 却常被排除在外 as people with disabilities almost exclusively
我想推荐一本好书 In fact there is a wonderful book that I should mention
它刚刚出版 that has just come out
名叫《丑陋的法律》 作者苏珊·帅克 It's called the Ugly Laws by Susan Schweik
由纽约大学出版社出版 from NYU press
它记录了西方世界乞讨的发展史 That's a history of basically begging in the western world
非常凄惨 That's really quite terrific
我的前提是 and my premise is that
世界上有各种各样的人 The world has filled with different kinds of people
30年前 In this very room, there are people
有些人不能来这个房间 who would not have been in this very room 30 years ago
女性不能来这个房间 There are women that would not have been in this room
我关注的是那些因为各种不同的原因 What I am interested in is that there are people with disabilities
不能出现于这个房间的 that would not have been in this room 30 years ago
残疾人 for many different reasons
不仅是这个房间 还有这个校园 In this room on this campus
这座城市和整个世界 in this city out and about in the world
后来这个情况发生了改变 And that has been affected largely through a set of changes
因为我们对于自己以及 in how we imagine ourselves
如何建设一个共同生活的世界的看法 and how we build a world
发生了改变 we live in together
这些改变发生在我们的态度上 And those changes have come in attitudes
发生在法律规定上例如《美国残疾人法案》 in legislative mandates such as the Americans with Disability Act
还有其他民事法律和各种立法 and other civil rights acts and pieces of legislation
这些法律开启了一个新世界 that have opened up the world
一个接纳所有人 所有人都能参与的世界 that have insisted on an accessible and integrated world
所有建筑障碍都被推倒 And architectural barriers have been taken down
业已建立的整个环境发生了改变 The built environment itself has been changed
我正在研究 And so what's I am working on right now is a project
纳粹统治时期的 which looks at eugenics
安乐死 and even the eugenic euthanasia of Nazi period
他们以此将一部分公民 as a way to exclude and from the public world
即我们眼中的残疾人 the parts of the potential citizenry
排除在公共世界之外 that we think of people with disabilities
我试图将其置于我们现有世界的对话之中 And to put that in conversation with the world that has been built
让残疾人 to allow people with disabilities
也能参与公共生活 to come into it and to participate in the public sphere
所以我很关注发生的变化 And so I am focusing on this kind of change that's taken place
我想给大家看一下我最喜欢的图像 And I just want to show you my very favorite image
是关于我们可利用的公共交通设施 about accessible public transportation
因为 Because
我将交通视为 I am centering on transportation as the kind of sight of access
民主制度下的公民所拥有的最重要的一项权利 that's the most important for democratic citizenry
即出行的能力 that is the capacity to get there
你想去哪里 Where would you want to go
就能去哪里 You have to get there
而且你可以利用交通设施到那里 and you have to get there through accessible transportation
这张图是一个妇女和她的矮马向导 And this is a picture of a woman and her guide pony
一起登上公共交通工具 getting on public transportation
我希望大家了解 对于残疾人 特别是盲人 And I want you to know that some of the best service animals
帮助最大的服务动物就是矮种马 for people with disabilities particularly blind people
这个是我自己发现的 没人告诉我 untold I have learned are service ponies
也许有一天你会在飞机上 and so you will find yourself sometime on an airplane
发现旁边的那个人带了一只服务矮种马 with someone who uses service animal service pony
矮种马在整个飞行途中 And that pony will stand during the entire flight
都要站在头等舱和机长舱之间 between first class and coach
赖斯:你提到了公共世界这个概念 Reiss: You mentioned the notion of public sphere
在《凝视》一书中 and one of the little titbits in Staring
我发现了一些花絮非常(听不清) that I just found so kind of (INAUDIBLE)
哈贝莫斯 这也是你发明的词 was that you are gonna Habermas you coined the phrase
这个词引发了一千场的学术讲座 which has launched a thousand dissertations
他会设想 I mentioned at some point
公共世界 that he was able to conceive of the public sphere
因为他与这个世界存在距离 in part because of his distance from it
或者他是被排除在这个世界之外 or his sense of exclusion from it
因为他有唇裂 Because he had a cleft palate
手术之后他相貌丑陋 and many operations which disfigured him
我认为你的工作 And it seems to me that this is one of the kinds of things
能够做到的一件事就是 that your work can do
采用这些批判的概念和类别 is to take these critical concepts and categories
我们自以为对其了解不少 that we thought we knew something about
我们真的自己懂得 We really thought we understood you know
我们也有看到别人 Those of us have set through
接受乳房切除手术 enough breastlessness of someone else
我们以为公共世界已经在我们的掌控之中 We thought we had a hand on the public sphere
我们从没有想过它与残疾人的关系 and we didn't ever think that it had something to do with disability
不是说 一切都在我们的掌控之中 that it not just ok we can handle that
事实是 You know it sort of yes
残疾人要进入这个世界 it would seem to perhaps be problematic
会遇到困难 for those with disability to enter
这里有一个概念 就是残疾人时刻 But the very conception of it was sort of a disability moment
你能不能具体谈一下 Could you say a little more about that
汤姆森:好的 我很关注残疾这个概念 Thompson: Sure I am very interested in disability as a concept
等下我会结合另一张幻灯片谈谈这个话题 and I can talk a little about that with another slide in a minute
以及残疾是一种具有生产力的经历 And also about disability as a generative experience let's say
我认为哈贝莫斯就是一个很好的例子 And I think Habermas is a really good example of this
因为他可能 Because it was his potential exclusion
会被排除在公共交流生活之外 from the public sphere of communication
因为他有唇裂 Because of his cleft palate as well as the experience that he had
他接受了各种唇裂矫正手术 with the various medical treatments for this cleft palate
这些使得他开始思考 that made him think about
以不同的方式参与到公共世界中意味着什么 what it means to be in public in a different way
意思就是或者说含义就是 And what this means is or what it suggests
残疾人的经历 is that the experience of disability
无论是 用社会学术语来说 whether it's an achieved identity
就是自己争取的身份 to use sociological terminology
还是人们赋予的身份 or an ascribed identity
都影响了这些残疾人的 has an influence on the cultural products
文化产出 that people with disabilities make
我刚刚也提到了 and I have been working recently
我最近在研究残疾和艺术 on disability and art as I mentioned
特别是残疾人肖像 and particularly portraits of people with disabilities
尽管我的研究并没有关注查克·克洛斯 And although the work I have done hasn't focused on Chuck Close
我觉得他是个很好的例子 I think he is a good example of this
你可能知道 查克·克洛斯 Chuck Close as you perhaps know is considered
被人们奉作相片写实主义的创始人 to be the kind of originator of photographic realism
他拍照的对象经常就是他自己 and his subject of art is often himself
他一直都在 And he has painted himself
画自己 over and over and over and over again
从一开始 他就以写实的方法画自己 And he began with rendering himself very realistically
这是1967年的查克·克洛斯自拍像 and you have here a 1967 sort of
非常出名 famous self portrait of Chuck Close
在他的身体和画布之间 in which he is able to have a relationship between
建立了一种联系 his body and the canvas
于是就产生了所谓的相片写实主义 that results in what we think of this photographic realism
他后来不幸残疾 As he becomes disabled over a lifetime
患上了四肢麻痹症 He becomes quadriplegic
他的身体 确切来说是他的手 The relationship between his body literally his hand
手与画笔的关系 and the way his hand has to relate to the brush
以及画笔与画布之间的关系发生了改变 and the way the brush then relates to the canvas changes
他的艺术也随之发生改变 And as it changes his art changes
在艺术史上 这被视为艺术的一次进化 And in art history this is imagined as an artistic evolution
也就是说他作画的勇气 That is to say grit the he uses to paint with
变得更加坚定 becomes a more gross grit in the sense
他早年绘画很熟练 that the dexterity that he uses earlier
后来这种情况发生了改变 on in his career is changed for him
他与画布之间的关系也变了 and his different kind of relationship with the canvas
于是他开始以不同的方式绘画 so he begins to paint in a different style
我想要说明的一点就是 And I would like to make the argument that
像哈贝莫斯眼中的 that style much like Habermes' conceptualization of
公共交流和公共世界受到了 public communication and the public sphere is influenced
他残疾经历的影响 by his bodily experience of becoming disabled
所以他的绘画中并没有…… And so he is painting differently not in spite of…
他没有弥补自己的残疾 he doesn't compensate for his disability
但是因为身患残疾 他用不同的方式作画 But he paints differently because of his disability
这是我想要说明的一点 This is the argument I would want to bring forward
就像哈贝莫斯对于公共世界 just as Habermas thinks about
不同结构的看法 the different configuration of this public sphere
不是与他身为残疾人没有关系 not in spite of being a person with disability
相反 正是因为他们是残疾人才会这么想 but because of…
赖斯:我觉得有一点非常有趣 Reiss: Yeah, and one of things that I think is very interesting
你回顾了《神奇的身体》 It goes back to kind of conceptual structure
和哈贝莫斯故事中的 of the Extraordinary Bodies
结构性概念 about the Habermas story as well
你说到了边缘性群体的作用 is that you say there's sort of the function of marginality
他们决定了中心群体 and it's to define the center
就是有了残疾人的概念才有了正常人的概念 And that disability is a kind of sight where normality gets defined
这和他有着更复杂的关系 And here is a much more complicated relationship with him
因为不是某些人被排斥 Because it's not just sort of the exclusion of somebody
产生了中心群体的幻觉 produces the illusion of the center
而是他们被边缘化的经历 but the experience of being marginalized
或者说觉得不被人接受的感觉 or not quite feeling to have oneself access
让他产生这样的想法 helps him just to conceptualized
到底是什么把我们绑在一起 What is the thing that is sort of supposed to bind us together
我也在思考查克·克洛斯的例子 I am also thinking about the example of Chuck Close
还有你在《凝视》一书中的 And thinking about the work that you are performing in Staring
残疾研究 related to disability studies
我还对另一点非常感兴趣 One other thing I was interested about is that
它不像普通的残疾研究作品那样容易分类 it's not easily categorizible as simply disability studies book
因为我眼中的终点 Because the end point doesn't seem to me
并没有新的语言来思考残疾 to kind of have a new language for thinking about disability
但是残疾从一开始 but rather disability is from the starting point
就让你用不同的方式思考整个领域 that allows you to see the whole field of representation differently
换句话说你去看艺术家的眼睛 In other words once you look through the eyes of these artists
你就会理解一些原理 You begin to understand sort of mechanics
关于我们和副标题 about how we and the subtitle is
副标题中没有残疾这个词 Disability is not on the title
而是我们如何看待 the subtitle is how we look
汤姆森:这本书的主题是残疾 但是非常隐秘 Thompson: It's a stealth disability book
赖斯:这本关于残疾的书确实非常隐秘 Reiss: Well it's a stealth disability book
但是这本书也和视觉文化有关 but it's also I mean it's a book that I think it's a visual culture book
你的切入点就是残疾的视觉印象 It's a book about visual with disability as your entry point
你说这本关于残疾的书很隐秘 很有意思 Interesting to hear you talk about as a stealth disability book
我知道你是在开玩笑但是…… Imagine you have joking but…
汤姆森:确实我只是在开玩笑 Thompson: Only have
我知道 本也了解 Well I learnt and Ben was involved in this
当你向一个专家会议 that when you present a paper to conference
提交论文的时候 or a paralytic conference
在论文中要有 残疾 这个词 And you have the word disability in the title
在观众中有很多人 There are very many people in the audience
他们与演讲者存在着联系 And they are usually all related to the presenters
但是如果你去参加专业的专家会议 But if you make a paralytic professional conference
你在标题中写的是畸形人或者怪物 and have give out freaks or monsters
你就没法进入会议室 you can't get in the room
赖斯:确实是有很多观众 但是你确实这么做了 Reiss: Yeah we had a huge audience but at first one you put on
于是我就出来了 然后 And I was just coming out and as you know
标题中写着畸形人 Freaks in the title and all of a sudden
于是所有的畸形人都出来了 all the freaks came out
汤姆森:是 包括艾瑞克也是一样 Thompson: Yeah including Eric
那个时候真是很有意思 It was interesting moment but in any case
人们生来就很关注残疾人 I want in a way to capitalize on what I consider the inherent interest
我想要利用这一点 that people have in disability
但是我们一旦发现某些人并不是残疾人 but the interest that those of us who identify is nondisabled often
就会产生矛盾 might feel a little bit conflict about it
因为残疾人有时 Because of course an interesting disability
会成为人们怀疑的对象 is sometimes imagined as suspect
另外 如果我们不顾自己的身份 Another is if we want to come and look at people with disabilities
去观察残疾人 regardless of our own identity
我们会觉得这有点像窥探癖 we might feel that's a little bit too close to voyeurism
我们都不喜欢自己的好奇心 We are all uncomfortable about our curiosities
但是我们的好奇心都非常强烈 and also it seems like a very ardent undertaking
确实是这样 and of course it is
我的残疾研究 I take my model in working in disability studies
从女性理论和性别研究中引用例子 of course from a feminist theory and women in gender studies
这些研究 which of course is a much more
有着更先进的理论和学术知识 developed theoretical body and scholarly body of knowledge
理论基础更加坚实 that has been much more firmly established
残疾研究仍然是边缘科学 Disability is still a little bit kind of on the margins
我希望大家能更多地关注残疾研究 And I want to invite a certain extravagant interest in disability
所以我想如果是以凝视开题 And so I thought if I began with the premise of staring
而不是以残疾开题 rather than beginning the premise of disability
那它就能如我所愿地 that it would universalize the interest in disability
让大家都对残疾感兴趣 in a way that I hoped
像我刚刚说的 大家都对凝视感兴趣 Because everyone as I mentioned is interested in staring
赖斯:我认为你在书中普遍化的还有一点 Reiss: Another way I think you universalize that in the book
那就是当你回顾凝视的历史时 is that when you give a historical frame for staring
并不是用传统的历史回顾 it's not a traditional historical frame
你回顾了现代早期和经典作品 It might go back to the early modern period or classics
以及类似的东西 or something like this
你还追溯了进化史 You traced an evolutionary history as well
你谈到了一些理论 And you talked about theories about staring's cognitive role
关于凝视在人类和动物大脑中的认知作用 in the functioning of brain in human and animal
并且将它置于社会背景下进行讨论 and kind of wrenches it out of the purely social context
我的意思是 I mean obviously
很明显这里勾画了 there's a tremendously complicated social dynamics
一种非常复杂的社会动力 that have been sketched out here
但是要说这个话题具有普遍性…… but claiming the universality to the topic…
汤姆森:这是因为 Thompson: Well and of course that is because
我能够利用认知心理学的知识 I was able to use cognitive psychology
和他们对于新奇刺激物 and what they have to say about novel stimuli
和神经学原理的研究 and about neurological processes
这些对我来说都非常有用 which was very useful for my own purposes
因为它们从生物学的角度证明凝视的合理性 Because it gave a biological justification to staring
因为我想要研究 and since I really want to investigate the generative potential
我们凝视奇特事物这一行为可能具有的生产力 of looking at that which we imagine as unusual
我的意思是 And of course my point is that
如果世界上都是特别的人 when the world fills up with unusual people
或者我们认为特别的人 or the people imagined as unusual
这应该会是我们凝视的一个重要元素 And this is one of the most important elements of staring
他们的新奇只是一时的 that which is novel at one moment
并不能持续多久 does not hold its novelty very long
如果短期内我们看某个东西 If we look at something for a very short period of time
之后理解了它或者适应了它 and figure it out or simply become accustomed to it
那我们就不会再盯着它看了 We no longer stare at it
也就是说 我希望大家 And in some sense this is what I am after is
能够想一想如果这个世界上都是特别的人 to think about how a world would be
这世界会变成怎样 if it were filled with very unusual people
无论这里的 特别 是什么意思 No matter what unusual means
也无论这里的空间是什么样的 and what kind of a space that would be
我们都会以 if we were all there together
具有生产力的方式互动 interacting generatively with one another
赖斯:我还有十个问题 Reiss: I have that ten more questions
但是我想留点时间 but we do want to leave some time
让观众问几个问题 to few questions from the audience
所以这种正式的揶揄就到这里为止吧 So perhaps we can stop our formal banter here
汤姆森:好主意 Thompson: That's a good idea
大家可以提出问题或者评论 Questions, comments
问题:噢(听不清) Question: Oh (INAUDIBLE)
他们都有用麦克风 They use so much of this
你能不能说一下 I wonder if you could just talk for a second
你从文学研究向视觉文化的转变 about moving from literary studies to visual culture
以及有助于这种转变的 and the kind of moves that involved in
一些活动 what you thought about backing that transition
你早前有提及 And whether in fact you mentioned this early on
这也是我们曾讨论过的 and you and I have talked about this
就是你想让更多人关注这项研究 the desire to interact the larger public for this work
你是否 whether taking another field
是以视觉文化和视觉表征 of visual culture and visual representation
作为策略方案 as part of that strategy
赖斯:这是我那十个问题中的两个 Reiss: These were two of my ten questions
汤姆森:从事文学研究的 Thompson: As most of you know
大部分人都知道 who are involved at all literate studies
文本研究 What we think of as a text
在过去几年中不断拓展 has expanded tremendously over the last years
我们过去觉得诗歌和文学很难算是文本 So that we imagined narrowly literary works
但是现在它们也算了 such as poetry and literature to be our set of text
我们观念中的文本得到了拓展 And this expansion of what we imagine to be text out into the world
这让我 is really what has enabled me
找到了研究的对象 to have the trajectory of objects of study that I have had
我开始研究小说 I began looking at novels and looking at the representation
还有小说中对残疾和残疾角色的描写 of disability and disable characters in novels
于是我研究畸形秀 以其作为文本和故事 And then I began to work on visual culture
来开始研究 in the sense of looking at
视觉文化 the freak show as a text as a narrative as a story
后来我转向了艺术领域 And then I moved from there into art
转向流行文化和传媒中的图像 and into images in popular culture and media
我喜欢那些图像 I love the kinds of images that
我找一下 let's see if I can find this
就像这样的图像 Stuff like this
我曾非常关注残疾人时装模特 I did a lot of work on disabled fashion models
以及把残疾 and the representation of disability
以美和吸引力的形式表达出来 as a form of beauty and attractiveness
因为我们对残疾的传统意识就是 because of course the traditional understanding of disability
他们不具备性感的资格 is that it is a sexual disqualifier
并且残疾会产生与美相反的效果 and that it actually produces the exact opposite of beauty
我们有很多关于美的理论都认为对称很重要 We have all these theories of beauty that symmetry is important
我开始研究相片图像 And I began to try to work with photographic images
以文学评论和一些分析手段 Reading those images
来解读这些图像 with the methods of literate criticism and analytical tools I have
无论我看到的是什么 No matter what it is I am looking at
我都把它当作新奇之物来看 I am looking at as if it were a novel
因为我们要这么做 Because that's what we do
但是我认为这种方式能很好地 But I think it's a great way
把文学评论的视角用于一个更广的世界 to bring the perspectives of literate critic into the broader world
用于解读这些图像 and to try to read images
我们现在都是这样做 I mean we all do that now
如我刚才所说的 现在我对于 and I am working now as I mentioned in this project
公共交通和安乐死的研究 on public transportation and eugenic euthanasia
都是从这些图片展开的 which is a stretch at moving from images
于是我从小说起家 进而研究图像 So I started with novels I move to images
现在我希望进而研究空间 And now I am hoping to move to space
这是我很不了解的 which is another thing
一个领域 that I really don't know very much about at all
它要利用地理学家的知识 which is trying to use what geographers do
我这里有一张图片 有点令人泄气 and I have one image here that's a real demoralizing one
但是我还是想展示一下 but I will show it to you anyway
例如我想要分析 For example I am trying to analyze
安乐死的空间情况 some of the spaces of eugenic euthanasia
来了解关于公共世界和部分公民 to having the public or to be a part of the citizenry
或者说部分人类社会 or be a part of the human community
纳粹党是利用毒气室 so the Nazi has used the space
来实施安乐死 of the gas chamber to actually do this
这是毒气室最早的原型 And this is the one of the original prototypes for the gas chamber
早前奥斯维辛集中营就是用它 that was used in the eugenic euthanasia of people with disabilities
对残疾人实施安乐死 early on in the Auschwitz
一些类似的毒气室 and it's put in the conversation with the gas chamber
被用于塑造 that was used for
公共市民的激进行为 the more ambitious project of shaping public citizenry
比如残杀犹太人和其他身份团体 by killing Jews and other identified groups
所以这是对公共空间的解读中 So this is the worst cheerful aspect
最让人不快的一个方面 of this kind of reading of public space
于是我们就快点跳过 So we can move off them fast
这张图片不错 There's a good one
赖斯:后面 是的 就是你 Reiss: Back there, yes, you
汤姆森:女士 Thompson: Ma'am
问题:感谢你的发言和你的书 Question: Thank you for the presentation and your work
我的第一个问题关于 My question of a little preamble is on the differences
身体残疾和精神残疾的异同 and similarities between physical disability and mental disability
我现在正在观察医院的病患 since I am now looking at the hospital
他们都是受到Frigory的刺激(听不清) which at some point inspired by Frigory and (INAUDIBLE)
弗兰卡去参加婚礼 Franke in member of the wedding
他很怕怪物秀 于是他(听不清) and Franke is terrified of the freak show (INAUDIBLE)
然后坐牢了 And going to jail
当我看到Frigory的时候 When I saw Frigory
我明白了他是害怕怪物秀 I figure he covered with a freak show
我想也许要再观察一下别的医院 so maybe I should look at another hospital
然后我发现在50年代时 这种现象最为明显 and found it was largest in the world in the 50s
患有这种残疾的人数最多 and claims the largest greatest of disabled people
我很晚才开始关注 So I am now a little bit later trying to
关于身体残疾和精神残疾的这个问题 think through this question of disability mental and physical
视觉文化似乎 It seems that the visual culture privileges
更加关注所谓的身体残疾 so called physical disability
不知道你是否也是这样认为 If you accept that explicit if I don't think really is
我觉得这二者是互相破坏的关系 I think they keep collapsing back into each other
我特别考虑了沉默的人 So just any thinking special with be too in silence
和房间里的其他人 and other people in the room
大家也会这么看 这么想 Human too who has done seeing and saying
你是如何弄清身体残疾和精神残疾的视觉文化 how do you tease out physical and mental disability visual culture
还有其他的特性比如听觉文化 other markers maybe auditory culture
在思考这些问题的时候 if you perceived all of a sudden talking about something that
我这么说吧 Is it making sense like
你是如何以笛卡尔二分法 How do you view those kind of things
看待这些问题呢 kind of beyond Cartesian split
汤姆森:这个问题问的很好 Thompson: Yeah that is a terrific question
确实我的研究 And of course my work appears to be
更加关注身体残疾 privileging physical disabilities
而不是精神残疾 as we understand it over in place of mental disability
换句话说 or other ways of saying
看得见的残疾与看不见的残疾 that would be visible disabilities
我们更关注前者 over invisible disabilities
对于你猜测的情况 我们全都赞成 as you suspected of course I think we would all agree
我们确实要用二分法来看 that is indeed of course dichotomy
如果说 If we imagine disability and this is
残疾的定义是 as a good definition as any has stigmatized and medicalized
对人类变异某些形式的 the stigmatization and medicalization
歧视和治疗 of certain forms of human variation
那么精神残疾 Then there really is no difference
或认知残疾 between what we think of psychiatric disabilities
与身体残疾 or cognitive disabilities
二者并没有区别 and what we think of physical disabilities
我的书之所以看起来 The reason that my work ends up
更加关注身体残疾 looking more like physical disabilities
是因为这种残疾形式更容易表现 is that it's more representable
我觉得如果不是体现文本故事的视觉文化 I think there are really interesting challenges to representing
而是表现 visually not so much narratively texturally with textual narratives
认知残疾和精神残疾的视觉文化 but representing visually cognitive and developmental
那会遇到很多挑战和困难 and psychiatric disabilities
正如你所说的那样 as you briefly mentioned
我们的一位同事桑德尔·吉尔曼 Our colleague Sander Gilman
是艾莫利大学 who is a member of
残疾研究小组的成员 what I call disability studies cluster here at Emory
他在一本书中做了大量地描写 has written extensively about this most importantly in the book
那本书的名字叫做《看疯子》 called Seeing the Insane
它是我从事 which is absolutely the aspiration for my own work
残疾表现形式分析工作的灵感 in analyzing representations of disability
书中他追溯了 in which he traces the way
精神疾病的表现形式 psychiatric disability has been represented
如果大家有机会一览此书 就会发现它很棒 and it's fascinating if you have had a chance to look at it
它包括了精神疾病最早的表现形式 from the very beginning of this kind of representations
经过了相片时代 一直到现在 forward into the present through the era of photography
相片时代也非常有趣 which is really particularly interesting as well
它带来了很多不同的挑战 It presents a set of different kinds of challenges
我提出了一个理论论点 I do put forward the theoretical argument
那就是所有的残疾 要么是可见的 that all disability by its very nature is either visible
要么是可能可见的 or has a potential for visibility
这赋予它社会意义 and that's what gives it its social meaning
我想用易读性这个词 而不是可见性 And instead of visibility I would use the word legibility
这是与残疾相关的另一个词 another word for disability as we understand it
它是有社会意义的 to have social meaning
它必须是清晰的 It needs to be legible
意思就是 that is it needs to be in some way
我们要能辨认出它的文本社会意义 recognizable or perceivable for a text social meaning
例如 So you can have a situation for example
某种精神障碍的表现形式 the way we think of as scissure disorder
也许是我们完全见不到的 which might be completely invisible
因为它本身并不常被视为残疾 because it's not always present form of disability
但它有着某种社会意义 that still has social meaning
而这种社会意义 and its social meaning is in its potential
随时都可能爆发成为人们眼中的残疾 to at any minute erupt into disability
赖斯:如果你从历史的角度来观察 Reiss: One of the other sort of interesting ways
在各种残疾形式之间 to think about some of these links across disability
存在着一些联系 if you look at it historically
无论是智力残疾 Think about either mental disability
或者说认知残疾 精神残疾 or cognitive disability psychological disability
不管是什么名字 whatever name you given to it
反正就是内在的残疾 this sort of interior states that we get of all disability
关于它的残疾研究起步很晚 But it's kind of late comma to disability studies
但是如果你回顾历史 But if you look back historically one thing
就会发现精神疾病和其他残疾有一个相同点 that mentally ill and many other categories of disability share
那就是它们都有着体制化的历史 is a history of institutionalization
我为这本书做研究的时候发现了 And one of the things I was fascinated to find
一件有趣的事情 in doing research for my book
我研读了不同科室的病人写的文章 as I was looking at writings of patients who were confined to aisle
在不同疾病患者之间 And there is a lot of cultural traffic
存在一种文化交流 between different kinds of aisles
那些聋哑病患 where those in the aisle for the deaf and dump
经常去探望精神科的病人 would come to visit the mental institution
通过这样的方式 他们对未来怀抱一丝希望 to kind of get a sense of you know as sort of future
双方都创办了刊物 And both institutions published journals
而且互相交流 and they shared with each other
有时他们还通过这些刊物对话 And sometimes they spoke to each other through these journals
互称对方为哥们 referring to one another sometimes as brothers
我发现在这些病人 And there is a certain jealousy
自己创办的刊物中 that the authors of the patient-run-journal
精神疾病刊物的作者 in insane aisle that I was looking at primarily
对于聋哑病患表现出一种妒忌之心 exhibited toward those in deaf and dumb aisle
因为他们可以享受更好的设施和治疗 They had sort of better facilities and treatment
他们的刊物可以筹到更多的钱等等 and you know they got more funding for their journal and so on
所以存在一种跨疾病的意识 So there was a kind of cross disability consciousness
尽管不是疾病的一种 that wasn't named as disability
但是你可以将其视为一种引导者 But you can sort of start to see the preceptors
它能带领我们 that would allow us to now make a lineage
将这些存在关联的事物组成一个体系 for what were linking together conceptual it
问题:本在关于变化的问题中 Question: Ben's question about the shift
提到了是否存在含义的激进化 whether there is a kind of radicalizing of the implication
以及是否存在一个有趣的发展过程 and there is a kind of sort of interesting subject of process
这是我所关注的问题 And I was thinking about this kind of move
我体验到了一种规范的变化 I sort of have experienced a kind of paradigm shift
在一个清楚的情境之下 There is some kind of connection for me
这跟我也存在一些关联 coming out of a clear context
赛芝维克的作品《衣柜认识论》 that in Sedgwick's work Epistemology of the Closet
与这种变化有些许共鸣 did something that I think echoes with this shift
那就是有些是同性恋 is that some people really are homosexual
每个人都有可能是同性恋 Every single person is potentially homosexual
这种重叠 and the overlap the sort of you know
她称之为不相关的相关性 she calls this sort of
或者相关的不相关性的 irrationalized overlap of
不合理重叠 this sort of incoherent coherence or coherent incoherence
我认为它与这种变化存在共鸣 I think it has a kind of echo to this
要了解其中一点 you know it takes one to know one
才能了解另外一点 It takes one to see one
但是在了解另外一点的同时 but in seeing one
它也提醒我们一种可能 it sort of opens up the possibility of reminder of potentiality
那就是主体变成了客体 of the subject turning into the object
但是这里的客体也是主体 But the object here is also a subject
我说了这么多 And I am just sort of going off
就是希望她的研究成果 and produce some
和正在发生的这种神奇变化 really powerful echoes
能够产生有力的共鸣 between her work and this incredible shift that's happening
汤姆森:的确我深受《衣柜认识论》的影响 Thompson: Absolutely I mean I am very influenced of course
正如 by Epistemology of the Closet
大家同样受到她的影响 in particular I mean as many of us are
特别是普遍化和少数化的概念 In particular the concept of universalizing and minoritizing
受到她的启发 and that's exactly the move
我才想到要将残疾普遍化为一种身份 that I want to make it universalize disability as an identity
就像这个词所包含的含义那样 in the sense of I mean in lots of senses as that term suggests
但是我要说 but in particular in making the argument
残疾不单用于那些身患残疾的人 that disability is not just about or for people with disabilities
也有可能用于我们所有人 but is about or for all of us not necessarily
因为我们都有可能患上残疾 because we could all become disabled
或者说我们都可能失常 or we could all become queer
但是我觉得你解释得非常巧妙 But rather I think you explain it in the subtle way
在这些类别的残疾患者中确实存在界限 that it is intended that the borders between these categories
这些界限对于区别身份的作用并不是很明显 are not so firm in many ways in terms of identification
我是指身份归类 in terms of the ascription of identity
有一本好书叫做《打残理论》 and there is also a really good new book called Crip Theory
这是我们和罗伯特·麦克鲁尔合编的 that many of us work with by Robert McRuer
这本书将酷儿理论和残疾理论 that brings together queer theory and disability theory
通过有趣的方式联系起来 in very interesting ways
他发明了一个词 He has coined the term
有没有人知道 快帮帮我 help me out
是一种失常表现 it's a queers
谢谢 强迫能动性 Thank you compulsory able-bodiness
这个概念经过不断改善 which of course is a refined aging
非常重要 which is a really important concept
所以我觉得在残疾的对比身份研究方面 So there are many comparative identity studies opportunities
我们还是有很多机会 I think with disability
问题:有一些人会对她的研究成果提出质疑 Question: Some other resistance to this work was precisely
这是面向大众的 And this is oriented toward the public
我是指你的本意是对外开放 I mean you are trying to sort of open this out
受众基本上是一些内部学者 and you know it is just sort of the in-house academic stuff
对于她的研究成果存在着这么几点质疑 Some of resistance to her work were
首先她不是同性恋 that she was not homosexual
她手下的工作人员 and that the people who began to work under her
大多都不是博士 often times were not PhDs
于是大家都可以阅读这本书 And so that kind of extravagant invitation
因为它对专业的要求不高 also just on the ground in terms of professionalizing
这非常有趣 I mean it's interesting
这也提出了一种可能 It also sort of opens up this possibility
说是可能 其实是问题 I mean possibility but really the question
到底哪些人能够参与研究 of who can participate
赖斯:我觉得罗斯玛丽的成就 Reiss: I think one of the things that's been extraordinary
非常突出 about Rosemarie's work
不单指她的书 and also not just about her written work
还有她在学术界起到了重要作用 but about kind of her role in the academy
她让我们正视并且批判地讨论残疾研究 in bringing disability studies to the table in critical conversations
你从一开始就表现出坚定的决心 is that you have been admin from the beginning
还记得刚认识你的时候 and I think in one of very first conversations
有一次和你聊天 I have ever had with you about saying
你说不愿研究这个领域中冷僻的问题 that you did not want to police the boundaries of the field
你想创造一种 And what you wanted to do was to
概念工具 create a kind of conceptual apparatus
能够对人们正在做的研究有所启发 that would illuminate what people were already doing
我认为无论是作为一个专家还是一个作者 And I think both as a professional and you now as a writer
你都例证了你的原则 You have really exemplified that kind of principle
汤姆森:你这是在挖墙角吗 Thompson: I call it recruiting
我想说伊芙·塞芝维克给予 Well I want to say that the thing that I think Eve Sedgwick
我和她所有读者的就是 has given me and anybody else who had read her work
她在很多方面都做出了杰出的贡献 and I mean she contributes many things
但是我觉得最重要的一点是她非常慷慨 but to my mind the most important thing is her generosity
她的慷慨不仅体现在她的为人上 And it's not just a personal generosity
还体现在她的作品中 Her work is generous
她是我一直努力追赶的目标 And I have tried to actually emulate that
我们就说到这里吧 That's a great place to stop
谢谢 Thank you
本节目版权归艾莫利大学所有 The proceeding program is copyrighted by Emory University